Nearfield Monitor Dillema

Prime Mover · Post by **Prime Mover** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:53 am

Got a bit of a conundrum over purchasing some nearfield monitors. Up until now, I've been mostly mixing on headphones with the RedLine headphone plugin. And then for just playing music/recording synth, I'd been using some cheapo computer speakers, since it's not nearly as important (even if it doesn't make me happy). But a few recent accompanist jobs paid off (a little), and I think it's time to step it up a notch in the speaker world. Unfortunately, the construction of my studio room is quite strange... it's an A-frame, which is nice because it eliminates some parallel surfaces, and being a standalone cabin in alaska, has insanely thick insulation between all walls, which seems to work as a bit of a natural bass trap. Unfortunately, it's a bear to place furniture and gear in. The computer monitor sits just in front of one of these diagonal walls, so there's not that much room between my head and the wall, since it slants upwards towards me. So, by my measurements, an average 15" near field speaker would end up with the diaphragm in front of the computer monitor, and only about two feet away from my face! Just a guess here... but I'm guessing that's too close?

Now, my budget is pretty tight, I know I'm aiming for the lower end, about $400 or less for a pair (which means less because of high shipping costs). But it'll be a huge step up from what I'm currently using, and I still plan on mixing quite a bit on my AKG cans. Problem is, less than 15" tall cabs probably won't deliver decent enough bass for mixing. There is the option of getting small speakers and a sub, but it's always been my understanding that subwoofers aren't a very good option for accurate mixing.

I was able to try out some Alesis M1 Active MkIIs today, and I was pleasantly surprised (I'm not an Alesis fan, but I've ended up with way too much of their gear). It also seems that they do amazingly well in shootouts with similar price/size monitors. But they're 15" tall and 10" long, so they would be right in my face.

So, what are my options? Are there any smaller footprint speakers that deliver good bass response? Or is it perfectly okay to have monitors fairly close to my ears? (usually I hear 3 to 6 feet). Is my concern over small speakers + sub unfounded?

One final option is to put them farther to the sides, which will widen the stereo field to about 45 degrees on each side.

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:04 am

I suggest you check out the Adam speakers. I've read glowing reviews (in EM and/or SOS) of a couple of their smaller models.

A friend has a pair of Adam and they sound amazing. I like them more than my Alesis M1 Active.

http://www.adam-audio.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gravity Jim · Post by **Gravity Jim** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:56 am

The ADAM's do sound awesome, but I don't think you can buy a decent set for $400 the pair. The AX-5 sells for $500 EACH.

I'm not a fan of the Alesis monitors, but good monitoring is more about room treatment and getting to know the monitors you use than it buying the best thing in the world... so if you like them, go for it.

Not a huge fan of KRK's, either, and now that Gibson owns them as part of Gibson Pro Audio, you can bet they'll be sucking even harder soon.

The higher-end M-Audios are surprisingly good for the price. Full Compass shows the biggest ones for $499, but I know they'd sell them cheaper. I use the little ones for mix checking, but they sound surprisingly huge for something with a 5" woofer.

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/412524.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Prime Mover · Post by **Prime Mover** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:52 am

I was hoping to build some bass traps... but I did some research, I don't think they sell any rigid fiberglass (owens corning 703 or rockwool) in the STATE. Maybe in anchorage. And shipping costs are ENORMOUS. So I'll keep looking, but treatment may be a long term project. Thankfully, because of the design of this room, it's actually pretty good already, much much better than other rooms of its size. I could probably stick a couple bass traps in the rafters, though I may be better off throwing an old futon mattress up there, since I just can't find any fiberglass, I hear futons make pretty good traps. But I probably could make some diffusers.

As for the M-Audios, I'm not sure. Initially, I read some good reviews, but I've been hearing a lot of people complain about them too, granted, it's on KVR and GearSlutz, who always complain. But I dunno, SOS gave them a pretty good review, but then again, they gave the Alesis M1 a REALLY glowing review (which is one of the things that peaked my interest). But I'm not so sure how much to trust SOS, unless they are doing a hardcore shootout, they don't seem to ever say anything bad about a product. Also, probably 8" woofers are going to be way too big to fit anywhere. 5" woofers don't deliver much bass, which is why the 6.5" Alesis caught my attention as a good compromise. Do you have a sub with your 5" M-Audios?

And yeah, Adams are out of my price range. They're more expensive than JBL, which I wouldn't buy even if I had the money (these days, JBL strike me as low-end sold with a big pricetag).

wylie1 · Post by **wylie1** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:03 pm

Event has a new version of their 20/20s out http://www.eventelectronics.com/2020BAS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I haven't heard them yet though.
If you just plan on mixing with a set of near fields a sub really helps.

Prime Mover · Post by **Prime Mover** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:14 pm

Again, WAY out of my price range. And physically larger than I would like to do. As I said, this is quite a small room with very little space between myself and the back wall.

Your recommendation of a sub is quite interesting though. Maybe I should look into smaller monitors with a sub as a way of getting them back as far as possible. 5" instead of 6.5" or 8". Subs are usually fairly pricey though, so I may have to buy these components in sections. I'm still weary of subs though; most of the time, they seem to give the low end a VERY different character than the rest of the mix.

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:28 pm

Hi Prime-
Honestly the problem IMO is you get what you pay for.
I think if you want monitors you can mix with,that are truthful & that you will stick with long term you should wait a bit so you can increase your intended budget.
There are some really nice inexpensive smaller monitors in the marketplace such as Adam,Focal & Event but they are all substantially over the budget you are aiming for.
When you consider the accuracy you'd expect and want, all you have to do is reverse the math.
A good truthful speaker with built in amplification costs more money for the manufacture to produce than what you are budgeting.
If a retailer is selling for $400 a pair that means they paid, let's say for arguments sake, $250 and if we agree on the retailer paying in that range that would translate to the manufacture producing the pair let's say for $150.
How good can a powered speaker be, that is manufactured for $75 each? Maybe you should look at the used market to get more bang for the buck.
The size & design of the cabinet is related to how much bass they will produce.Good quality cabinets are design and labor intensive, bracing etc...
Combine this with well designed built in amplification and I think you will start to see you have to either raise your budget or lower your expectations.
I actually think if you double or even triple your budget you might find something you might actually like long term.
I don't think there is a good powered monitor in the market that retails in the $400 a pair price range.
The smaller Focals are very good(CM40) as are the Adams (though most users find the smaller Adams bass shy)the newer Events are getting nice reviews also.
I will always suggest not using a sub especially in this price range a cheap sub will be like adding a mud floor to the sound. Good subs are not cheap for the same reasons.
My last sub was a JL Audio F112 which is a great sub(retail $3000) and trying to get it working correctly for mixing IMO also requires a good quality active crossover(again not cheap)my system sounds so much better without it.
Yeah I have great monitors but they really sound better without the sub.
I'd rather have less bass and more clarity, they're intended use is mixing.
If I can't hear enough bass I'll a/b with headphones or listen on another system to see how they translate. After a while you learn to hear & translate what your hearing.
I think if you find something in the $400 range, after a very short time you will wish you waited a bit longer and purchased monitors in a higher price range. Something you'd really enjoy long term is going to cost a bit more.
I hope this makes some sense,I know this is not what you want to hear but I have found too many times a bad quality " bargain" winds up costing way more than a better quality pricier piece of gear because you wind up buying and selling a few times trying to make up for the mistake.
I say hold off save more and aim a bit higher.

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:09 pm

The JBL LSR2300 series is so good (and so cheap) that I'm not even tempted to upgrade to Neumann KH120's or anything else at this point.

Very balanced response, with accurate bass and no hype anywhere in the frequency range. Also very immune to room placement issues.

I bought mine for $300/pair or less (maybe $260?). Then I bought the sub for about the same. But I only use the sub for special effects during movie editing, and to off-load the lows from the 5" drivers. They perform fine without the sub; the sub is "aurally invisivle".

Prime Mover · Post by **Prime Mover** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:25 am

kgdrum wrote:I think if you find something in the $400 range, after a very short time you will wish you waited a bit longer and purchased monitors in a higher price range. Something you'd really enjoy long term is going to cost a bit more.
I hope this makes some sense,I know this is not what you want to hear but I have found too many times a bad quality " bargain" winds up costing way more than a better quality pricier piece of gear because you wind up buying and selling a few times trying to make up for the mistake.
I say hold off save more and aim a bit higher.

Yes, this makes sense, and I understand your point of view. But understand, you've already been exposed to and gotten used to really good quality monitors, so of course to you, they're crappy, and you'd never stand listening to them. But believe it or not, I've been using a 10-year-old pair of cheapo Creative Labs computer speakers on my system (single-element 3" speakers, and a cheap subwoofer)... not that I make mixing decisions with those (I use my AKG cans), but for general composition, piano practice, etc.

I remember something a wise professional bass player told the bass player in my band. My friend had been using a horrible $500 1/2 size plywood upright, it was practically duct-taped together. He kept playing it because he was saving for his dream bass: a fully carved 3/4 custom-made upright (about $10,000). But the pro told my buddy, "you need a new bass, and you need it now, you're too good for this instrument. Don't aim for your dream bass, that'll come 10-15 years down the road, we just need to get you something that you'll enjoy playing now." He recommended a small company in New England that made him a $3000 3/4 laminate bass made to his specifications that he absolutely adores, and that we as his bandmates really like.

Basically, I feel like my friend did with his terrible bass. I'm at the stage where I'm way too advanced for the speakers I'm using, but I've been holding off (and getting by with headphone mixing) because I just don't have the finances to get something high end. But honestly, and maybe I'm selling myself short, but I'm not sure I'd really be able to tell the difference between mid-grade and high-end monitors, since I've never been exposed and acclimated to them.

So, while one part of your argument makes sense, it also makes logical sense to at least move somewhat forward and get something I can be happy with until I feel I've outgrown them. When I listened to those Alesis M1s, by contrast, they sounded like pure bliss. I'd like to develop my aural acuity, but I've got to start somewhere.

Gravity Jim · Post by **Gravity Jim** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:33 am

Well, like I say, if you like Alesis monitors, go for it! Learning their characteristics is more important than buying the Best Monitors On The Planet.

As for my 5" M-Audios, yeah, any cheap pair of monitors is ring to get lambasted by somebody online. Trust your ears, because 90% of all Internet posting is pure self-aggrandizement. No, I don't use a sub: my main monitors are Event 20/20's which produce all the low end I need, and I use the little M-Audios to get an idea how the mix will sound on a good TV or car stereo. But there are lots of days I never turn the big ones on.... they sound good. Balanced and smooth, they don't "tear" in the high end like my old Awfultones did, and they don't have any crazy resonances in the cabinets. For the money, they're A-OK. They won't get booty-shakin' loud, but I never monitor loud, anyway.

HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:07 pm

I like MHS' recommendation... within your budget, and those JBLs have been receiving very good reviews in the bang for the buck department.

Having a sub, while not always necessary, helps prevent grave mixing errors like p-pops, thumps, and LF mud sneaking under the low-end cutoff of smaller monitors. You can add a sub when budget permits.

As Jim notes, learning the monitors you choose is just as (maybe more) important as your monitor choice.

Radiogal · Post by **Radiogal** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:34 pm

I´m really NOT kidding.
Please check these out, buy them and you´ll be enjoying mixing in no time. And best thing: You can afford these!

(These have the size of the Genelec 1030/ADAM A7)

Price about 300 USD/pair and free shipping.

I have friends that are VERY pleased with these and sold of their KRKs cuz these sounded better.

Or: if you can spend 500 USD you can consider one size bigger.
(These have the size of the Genelec 1031)
http://www.lightingelstore.com/servlet/ ... DIO/Detail

If I had a low budget or even higher, I´d buy these over many others. For sure!
Happy mixing.

Prime Mover · Post by **Prime Mover** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:07 pm

All Great ideas, I've really learned to trust your judgement radiogal, so coming from you, that puts the behringers back on my short list (I was starting to get the impression that they were more aimed at the electronica and techno crowd). Too bad they chose the most idiotic name for the series, I don't think you can get any more presumptuous than "truth".

I'm here at a gig and a live sound engineer that I really trust had good things to say about the new M-Audios, though I've heard th build quality on those is pretty poor, and he'd heard that too.

Radiogal · Post by **Radiogal** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:22 am

Thanks for your kind words Prime.

Want to say that I´m a Genelec person myself.

If the budget is tight, as you mentioned, one has really not that many options.
In this case I believe it´s not really for the bad, as the B-Truths 30XX series are gonna give you much more bang for the bucks and higher sound quality than what you would expect from a pair of active monitors in this price range.

Check out the Internet for the best price on the 3030A.

If you´re in need of bigger ones, you might even find a pair of 3031 that might stretch but still might fit your budget..

Rock On

Prime Mover · Post by **Prime Mover** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:57 am

Well, in my case, size is an issue, and by that I mean, they can't be too big. the room I work in is fairly small and these speakers are going to end up pretty close to my face because of my space options. The truths seem to have a much smaller footprint than the other speakers in their class, and even has larger woofers (6.5 instead of 5). That's really good.

Second bit of news, I talked to one of the studio owners here in town yesterday, and he told me that he actually found a place that sells Owens Corning 703! So I can treat the room! I don't think it needs much actually, it already sounds pretty good. The place is wood and insulated like you wouldn't believe (fifty below zero and all that jazz), I'm thinking a third of the amount a normal room would need bass traps would suffice, don't want to make it TOO dead.

Room first, monitors second. So I'll probably hold off until I get the room treated a bit. But the Truth 3030As are looking better and better because of their small footprint, and from what I've been hearing. I'm not a Behringer hater like most... they're in business because they've dedicated themselves to making low-end stuff that actually works. Can't really argue with that strategy.

MOTUnation.com