MOTU Plugs vs. Waves Plugs

[splproductions]

I can't believe I've gone for so many years without knowing about this forum! I've been an avid DP and MOTU hardware user for as long as I can remember!

Anyway - about my question. I'm using DP7, and I'm going to be getting some Waves plugs. I'll most likely get the Native Power Pack, but I was thinking about getting the Silver Bundle for a few more plugins - most notably the Renaissance Compressor and EQ. The Native Power Pack comes with the C1 compressor and a 10 band ParaEQ.

I got the demo versions and did a double-blind test. I took a vocal track that had been compressed with an Avalon VT-737 but still needed some additional compression. I used the same settings on MOTU's Dynamics, the Waves C1, and the Renaissance Compressor. The C1 came in last place both times, I think just because the resulting track was not as bright as the others and I'm partial to bright sounding vocals. In the first test, the Dynamics plug came in first place, and in the second test the Renaissance came in first. But between those two, it was really a toss up. I probably couldn't ever pick which one was which - they were pretty much identical.

Next I compared MOTU's ParaEQ, the Waves 10 Band ParaEQ, and the Renaissance EQ. I could not hear a difference at all. None. I'm not a gold-record mix engineer, but I've been engineering and mixing for about 12 years now - I do it for a living. So I do have fairly decent ears.

I guess my question is, are the Waves plugs really any better than what MOTU has? I love their mastering plugs like the L1 Ultramaximizer, but for compression and EQ, does MOTU hang with the best of them? For example, is the MW Leveler as good as the UA LA-2A modeling?

Any opinions are welcome.

[newrigel]

Intresting first post. I think the comparisons are a bit odd because a native DAW plug compared to a dedicated developer of only plugs is a bit unfair. The MW EQ is a killer EQ for a DAW plug. Nothing competes with the UAD LA2A for what it does which is make things round and present. I don't like waves because the native thing taxes the machine and that in itself is a negative for quality since they have to be CPU efficient so they can't be as deep as a DSP card can since the code is executed on the card. Plus WUP is a real deal breaker for me.

[Phil O]

I used Waves plugs for a number of years. I think the sound quality is great. I think the company is atrocious. When my WUP last ran out, I did not renew it. I think many here will agree that although they have a great product, the company's policies are unbearable. There are other developers that are making some great plug-ins for less and have better customer support. JMHO.

As far as MOTU plugs are concerned, I agree with newrigel. MW EQ is excellent. Many of the other plugs are great as well. I think I like UAD's version of the LA2A better than MOTU's, but MOTU really hasn't done a bad job of it. In general, their plugs are quite usable.

Phil

[KEVORKIAN]

When you look at the Native Power Pack and the Silver Bundle you are looking at some of Waves' oldest plugins. That's not to say they are bad, but it's worth factoring into any comparison where newer plugins are also being compared. Motu's MW Leveler and EQ are much newer pieces of technology and can certainly give those older waves more than a run for their money. Of the Waves plugins you mentioned, I currently only use the Ren Comp.

IMO, Waves' best work is being done in their latest bundles: API, SSL, V-series have the nicest EQ options, however I'd put Masterworks EQ right there with them. The CLA bundle has some amazing LA-2A/3As. Waves makes a litany of awesome compressors. I like Masterworks Leveler but am not crazy about the interface so I don't reach for it as quickly, but it sounds great. Motu's included effects have come a long way.

[Xzault]

I like Motu's Built in Palette of processing, But i am a waves mercury owner and i have to say that i am extremely happy with waves "WUP" and their product as a whole and I really love all the newer products they have and are releasing and i get it all for only $200 a year, they are indispensable, but i did start out years ago with a small bundle and upgraded every time some super deal came along, so i did not buy merc from 0 to hero, so i would recommend using the MOTU stuff until you can afford a bigger bundle that gets you all the newer amazing stuff like SSL, V Series, API, PIE L316, and so many more goodies for your bag...

[jloeb]

That's the whole trick with Waves - their pricing scheme is very astutely designed to make you buy up to the bigger bundles in your own self interest, because you're frankly penalized for being anywhere in the middle.

Since their products are so expensive individually, I've done what probably many have, which is to be very careful about which I choose to buy. Sensible under most circumstances, but the problem is that unless your choices perfectly align with one of the larger "bundles," the WUP fees can add up very quickly. It's now gotten closer and closer to the point where it just doesn't make any sense to renew WUP unless I go for a bigger outlay than I want to, to pay for one of the larger bundles, to "consolidate" my WUP plan. Ouch.

So Xzault's forewarning is right on. If you're going to go with Waves, pay very close attention to their bundling and WUP policy and make certain you understand it well before you jump. And unfortunately, the most "cost effective" jump in terms of WUP is the biggest. So with Waves' pricing structure, you either pay now or you pay later, and it's not small potatoes in either case.
** UPDATE - see below.

Maybe only a couple of years ago I would have said without any doubt that it was worth it. Today though, Waves really does have some truly just-as-good, very serious competitors, many of whom, while certainly not cheap, have more standard vending schemes. It's worth looking around.

+1 for what others have said about the MOTU plugs. They're very good to excellent.

[Shooshie]

Even the oldest Waves plugins are fantastic, because they are built upon principles of some of the most incredible acoustic and audio and electronic geniuses the world has known. Most specifically, the late Michael Gerzon was like the Mozart of electronic audio. His formulas and principles are still being studied, and people do not understand him completely to this day. I guess a better comparison would be with Nicola Tesla. Gerzon did not work for Waves, but he consulted with them, and they are using his work as the basis for their own. I cannot emphasize the difference this makes. Plus, their Native plugins actually produce higher resolution than their TDM plugins.

Their newer plugins are far out in the lead of most plugin manufacturers, but you have to know which ones to get. I personally don't think their "vintage" gear (based on famous engineers' work) isas good as their dedicated plugins, but they use it to pull in huge prices based on name-brand appeal. Their pure Waves plugins are the best value.

Their C4 processor, and their Linear Phase Multiband Processor are two of the greatest plugins ever invented. Also their L-series limiters are unbeatable. The best of these is the L3 Multimaximizer and its even better version: the LL3 LL Multi-Maximizer. (or something like that). It is hard as heck to wrap your mind around, but once you do, it's amazing.

I don't use their reverb; that's a position that Altiverb (by Audio Ease) OWNS. But Waves' Renaissance Plugins are well-known throughout the industry for producing quick and beautiful results.

The mininum package I'd get is the Platinum Bundle. Plus the L3LL MultiMaximizer. (not to be confused with the free 'Ultramaximizer' that comes with some bundles. The C4 and its liner phase counterpart, the Linear Phase Multiband Processor (I call it the C5) are not to be missed. You can do serious stuff with these when you learn how they work. They're not like normal compressors/limiters.

Waves Stereo enhancer is unbeatable, and their MaxxBass is something for all studios.

Don't let the naysayers short-sell you on Waves plugins.

Now, let's talk about the company. They have done some pretty nasty things to us in the past few years, but they have reformed, from what I can tell. They are supporting DP, and they have limited their WUP (upgrade and service protection fee) to $200/year. You don't have to buy it except in the years you need it. I have not paid for it in over 5 years, but I was paid up for 3 of those years.

I am often the one who is bad-mouthing Waves, but I have to say that their plugins are in a class of their own. MOST of them. Altiverb beats Waves' convolution reverb, IMO. There are other specialty plugins that Waves has not topped. Some of them are made by MOTU: the Masterworks EQ, Masterworks Leveler, Trim, M/S decoder, PreAmp, Tuner (the MOTU tuner is fantastic), and possibly others I'm forgetting. MOTU gives you a formidable library of plugins.

There are a lot of great plugins out there, and over time you will probably try a lot of them. I'd catch Waves on one of their big sales, and then buy through a company like Sweetwater, who can give you a discount. Then experiment with other brands as you come across good deals. if you have MOTU's plugins, Waves Platinum Bundle plugins, and Audio Ease's Altiverb, you will have a professional arsenal that is the envy of many pro studios.

Don't let people tell you that waves plugins aren't worth having. They're just frustrating because of the cost and the company, but Waves is trying harder these days, and they are running sales.

THat said, there are many other young companies that have amazing plugins. For vintage plugs, you can consider Nomad Factory. But they do not help you with many modern situations. Still, they sound good. And there is NOTHING like the Waves C4 and "C5."

I'm telling you about a basic library of plugins that will get you through any situation. From there, you will find tons of great plugins to be had, but you can always depend on your basic library if you can't afford one of those plugs right then and there.

If you don't believe me, go Google reviews of Waves plugins. They will convince you. Give them a try. You get 14 days free. If THAT doesn't convince you, nothing will.

Just remember, MOTU's plugins are not bad. Many are great. I don't like their MW compressor line, but that's just me. Some get great results from them. It takes years to learn to use these things, so go with established lines first, then you will know what you want.

Shooshie
(a former Waves hater, and a former, former Waves lover, once again loving Waves plugins)
(still not a great lover of the company, but I'm tolerating it since their recent improvements)

[FMiguelez]

.

A while ago I was kind of HATING Waves. For many reasons.

But I think they are dealing with all that bad rep they got, and are really changing the way the do things now.
They have been changing their ways, for the better.

I recently renewed my WUP. It was only $200. It's really not that bad (for Platinum, IR-1 and Tune).

If you read the advantages that WUP gives you, it's really nice, actually:

You never pay more than $200, no matter what. You can get a free lost-stolen coverage plan. You get new versions for free.
By renewing my WUP I even got a $200 dollar credit from them that I could apply towards any other plug-in, so I used it and saved $200 bucks on Vocal Rider, which I got through SweetWater.
And to top it all off, I was VERY HAPPILY SURPRISED to see they added a bunch of new, cool and free plugs to my bundle.

Most importantly, DP7.1 is working perfectly with Waves' plugs. There was a problem with Vocal Rider, but Waves fixed it. That's when I decided I'd use my WUP-earned credit to get VR.

So as far as I'm concerned, they made me change my mind from hating them to loving them again. With concrete actions.

Now, they are NOT cheap plugs... they cost a lot of money, especially when compared to many other brands. But they are worth it to me.

Way to go, Waves! Luv ya again!

[newrigel]

Waves is cool but I like the real deal.

[HCMarkus]

Welcome to MOTUNation spl. I appreciate the forthright manner in which you approach this issue, and your frank comments regarding sound quality you perceived. When we get down to comparing sound quality, I often wonder how much our perceptions are influenced by the GUI appearance ("give me some skin") and expectations.

I've put this question to the Nation before, but don't recall receiving any responses: Has anyone actually looked inside the code, to the algorithms used behind the "skins" of the various plug ins we know and love? I wonder how many EQs use similar, if not identical, algorithms to do the actual audio work. Same for compressors, etc. Anyone care to weigh in?

I own Waves Gold, and use some of the plugs a lot, noteably Ren Comp and De-Esser, Doubler, Mondo-Mod, and C4. Ren EQ's ability to independantly equalize left and right channels in a stereo track comes in mighty handy sometimes. Like others here, I'll voice hearty support for MOTU's Masterworks EQ, but confess MOTU's Dynamics plug has never seen much use due in my studio to what I perceive as a less-than-stellar interface and the limited resolution of some critical parameters. I can't resist a shout out to Altiverb, as it is simply superb!

[bongo_x]

Waves has always made good plugins and their policies have always been horrible. I was mad at them with my first purchase (Renn Comp in '98).

There are just way too many good choices out there these days to mess around with companies you don't like. When they started they were on another level from everyone else. Not anymore. They're good, but so are dozens of other companies.

bb

[newrigel]

I've put this question to the Nation before, but don't recall receiving any responses: Has anyone actually looked inside the code, to the algorithms used behind the "skins" of the various plug ins we know and love? I wonder how many EQs use similar, if not identical, algorithms to do the actual audio work. Same for compressors, etc. Anyone care to weigh in?

That's why I use the real deal! No one can do SSL better than SSL! And an LA2A or 1176 is better left to UA! I know that companies like Manley and others have given UA permission to do their designs in which the secrets and obvious specifics to their designs are revealed. Code is different within the heavier plugins. I'm for certain the freebies are identical but to think or say that the code is the same in a UA Neve 1073 to a Waves 1073 emulation are rather dismissing ... I can hear a difference in them. One has that 70's record sound and the other has a slightly hyped (.5db @ 4 to 7 Khz) presence peak that a real 1073 doesn't exhibit. 1073's are very aggressive and have a soft saturated edge @ the same time to them that the waves just doesn't have IMO. Some call it MOJO but I call it a soft saturation from the transformer in the real deal. And waves seem to add settings to their emulations that face it, the real units don't have and I think that that's the main component of some gear, the lack of certain things that are inherent in the design that cater to the complete character of it's sound and behaviors on a source. The Manley MP is the same way... there's NOTHING like it, and they won't have it... the real deal that is allowed anyway. I have been down the plugin road and I've tracked on SSL and Neoteks, Soundcrafts, Tridents, etc and all types of great gear and I can't do desktop productions without a fat glued sound. That's why I use the UA stuff but this is just my opinion and everyone is going to have different needs... that's the beauty of music, Individualism!

[jloeb]

Update - at the time of my last post above, I hadn't looked into updating WUP since December.

FMig is correct: they now really have capped annual WUP at $200 regardless of how many different bundles you have, as long as you simply check a box stating that you'll run them on one machine at a time (i.e. that you're not a pirate).

That definitely does change my attitude for the better. Reality, specifically, that there are other players on the block now, has finally penetrated the mind of Waves' management, and not a moment too soon.

[FMiguelez]

Update - at the time of my last post above, I hadn't looked into updating WUP since December.

FMig is correct: they now really have capped annual WUP at $200 regardless of how many different bundles you have, as long as you simply check a box stating that you'll run them on one machine at a time (i.e. that you're not a pirate).

That definitely does change my attitude for the better. Reality, specifically, that there are other players on the block now, has finally penetrated the mind of Waves' management, and not a moment too soon.

EXACTLY. Apparently they did learn their lesson well. Perhaps a little too late (for many -not for me-). Just look at most other forums (like GS): they DESPISE Waves! I don't know which one is more hated there: MOTU (for no reason) or Waves...

But the important thing is that Waves has changed for the better, and now that they are becoming a better company who makes GREAT plugs, they earned my trust (and my wallet) again.

I only hope I have the money to upgrade to Mercury this year.

Regarding MOTU's plugs, I admit that the one I use the most, by far, is Trim for stereo placement and correction. I haven't really used the other ones. Most are new to me because I took so long to upgrade to 7.1. But now that I'm beginning to open them and experimenting with them I'm liking them a lot.
Which reminds me, I have to check the included VIs at some point too.

[HCMarkus]

Just look at most other forums (like GS): they DESPISE Waves! I don't know which one is more hated there: MOTU (for no reason) or Waves...

Fear and Loathing prevail at GS.