compression question!

musicdragon · Post by **musicdragon** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:40 am

Hello,

I currently use the 2408 mk II n III on a G5 and want to record drums into dp4 with say 11-12 individual mics.

I have recorded my drums in the past with mixers Roland/ Tacam/ Mackie that either had built in compressors on each channel or routed in.

In a mixerless setup:

Should I invest in rack pre amps (Currently have presonus mp20 only 2 channels) and insert something like a waves Software compressor/gate prefade on each track for each mic/ or buy a mixer with compressors built in??????

or

Should I just get rack pres that have built in compressors like Universal Audio 6176????

or

Maybe get more rack pres and record all the mics direct with no compressors and add them when i mix????

Thank You
Donnie

kevinmathie · Post by **kevinmathie** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:49 am

Take my comment here with a grain of salt, since I'm still not mixerless, but I would go with mic pre's, and add a little bit of hardware compression. Then, I would add in whatever compression your song needs after your tracks are recorded.

I would be careful about putting too much compression on any signal that's going to tape -- er, hard drive -- because if you inadvertently add too much in the tracking process, there's no way to un-compress the signal. You can always add more after the signal is recorded.

So, I'm a big fan of software compression.

My 2-cents, anyway.

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:41 am

A few things worth considering, if you haven't:

1. You can both insert and aux buss software compression in DP just like you do with hardware. So, you have a lot of flexibility once in the box.

2. You can get software emulations of hardware. And some these emulations are pretty good (e.g., the UAD-1's 1176 to note a comp you've referenced).

3. Hardware compressors still sound better than software compressors. However, hardware comps are more expensive by a wide margin. And software comps are making continual quality gains.

4. I think you have to drop a lot cash to get quality comps built in a board. Rackmount is a much more flexible hardware solution.

Myself, I like to work with compression going into the box and inside the box. Typically, the compression going in is only for minimal dynamic control -- just to keep peaks and valleys from being too wide. Thereafter, I use software comps more as effects than dynamics maintenance (e.g., to amp up transient distortions and harmonics).

I break from this rule-of-thumb from time to time though, caking on the external comp if I know I want that specific effect. It ends up being a matter of deciding how much flexibilty I want to sustain throughout the mix. Sometimes it's wiser to make a fixed decision early on than be stultified with too many choices later.

I should note I'm talking about contemporary pop music recording (e.g., rock, dance, hip-hop, etc.). Orchestral or jazz recording would require different rules-of-thumb whereby compression use would be nearly "transparent" if used at all.

Lastly, I think a rackmount row of multiple preamps is a good way to handle drum recording. If you can afford it, look into APIs.

Hope this helps some.

musicdragon · Post by **musicdragon** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:02 am

Thanx for all the advise Chris n Kev really appreciate it

Yes, light compression going in just for the peaks n valleys thats what i was concerned about for both drums and vox.

Chris Question:

1. "You can both insert and aux buss software compression in DP just like you do with hardware. So, you have a lot of flexibility once in the box."

Does that mean to send/bus each drum channel to the same aux trax and add the compressor there? When I bounce to disk do I just include the aux track so the compression can be added?????

I am still learning so bare with me

I am looking at getting waves platinum for my first set of plugs and will try the aux bussing thing and see how that works before comitting to outboard compressors.

Yes a rack of 1176's would be nice

Going bankrupt wouldn't be lol

I have also looked at the presonus digimax LT, obviously a class lower than api

Thanx Again
Donnie

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:51 am

musicdragon wrote:Does that mean to send/bus each drum channel to the same aux trax and add the compressor there?

Exactly. Multiple tracks can send to a single aux track, thus giving you more CPU mileage out of a single plugin.

One way to do it: Each individual drum track (e.g., kick, snare, hihat, toms, etc.) can have an aux sends. You can direct these sends to a single aux track that has a single compression plugin inserted. Using the volume knobs on the drum track sends, you can adjust how much signal is directed into the compression aux track.

Another way: You could take all of your individual drum tracks and route all of them directly into a single stereo aux track (make a submix), then apply compression to this aux via insert. Doing this applies the compression equally over all drum tracks whereas the previous example allows more mix-in variation.

And that's just the beiginning. Each track can have multiple inserts and multiple aux sends. So, you could have a track using a compression plug as a insert that also sends to an aux track with a different compression plug as well as sends to yet another aux track with, say, room reverb.

When I bounce to disk do I just include the aux track so the compression can be added?????

Yeah. When you bounce to disk, you select the tracks you want to bounce. Just include these aux tracks in your selection.

I am looking at getting waves platinum for my first set of plugs and will try the aux bussing thing and see how that works before comitting to outboard compressors. Yes a rack of 1176's would be nice Going bankrupt wouldn't be lol

Wave plugs are popular and highly-reputed plugs. You should be happy with their sound. Just know they come with a paid upgrade maintenance program called WUP. A heads up.

If you're seeking good-sounding compressor plugs at a low price and CPU hit, check out Wave Arts TrackPlug and PSP MixPack and PSP VintageWarmer.

www.wavearts.com
www.pspaudioware.com

Myself, I use UAD-1 (my go-to choices), Wave Arts and PSP for in-the-box plugs. I have a few outboard boxes for external comp stuff.

I have also looked at the presonus digimax LT, obviously a class lower than api

I haven't used the digimax LT, but I think it ought to work fine. The convenient thing about drum pres is they needn't be the greatest to sound good.

Yeah, APIs are expensive. I just threw them out there since they're kind of the quintessential rock n' roll rack pre to my mind.

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:04 pm

This might be too advanced for someone beginning with effects and recording, but I personally have moved away from using a single aux for drum kit compression, ever since discovering WaveArts plug-ins.

Now that I am comfortable using spectral compression during mixing, I find that my drum sound has improved literally 1000% since applying individual spectral compression separately to each of the close-miked drums and also to the stereo overheads. So I'm back to using inserts (though I may switch to auxes anyway and just have separate sends, as I've read some advice on how auxes are friendlier to processing overhead than inserts).

If you do go with the WaveArts plug-ins, they have excellent clearly-purposed presets (which I have NEVER used on ANY other plug-ins!), which could take the edge off the intimidation factor and also serve as a learning environment for how to apply compression differently for each instrument or for specific recording problems from the original tracking.

musicdragon · Post by **musicdragon** » Tue May 23, 2006 4:26 am

Sorry it took so long to reply!! My soon to be wife just had a baby and recording had to sit on the back burner for a few

Thank you so much for that info guys!! Wow what a difference!! I used an aux track and bussed all the drums to that aux and wohhhllllahhhh

I was putting a comp on each drum and it was getting to mushy/squashed!!!

How can i make my bass drumS punchy though??? They were tracked clean no comps and they sound like Mud Flaps, lmao... This is a Rock project...

One more question?????

Is their a chain of command??? Meaning EQ then compressor or does it matter which one comes first??? For now until I invest in wavarts/waves or a UAD card I am using the MW stock plugs.... Is that my problem why I have Mud Flaps, still lmao...

Thanx Again, this board is great for DP users... If my 1st album goes platinum I'll be sure to give a kickback to this board and the people who helped

Donnie
www.musicdragon.com
www.myspace.com/dragonmusic

FM · Post by FM » Tue May 23, 2006 7:54 am

musicdragon wrote:Sorry it took so long to reply!! My soon to be wife just had a baby and recording had to sit on the back burner for a few

first of all... CONGRATULATIONS!!! best of luck with your new blessing.

second... i just started using the URS 1980 comp on my drums and vocals and man, it ROCKS!

i think that the guys that have responded have given a pretty acurate picture of how to work compression, i've learned from them myself...

i guess besides my recomendation of the URS software my other contribution would be to recommend to just go easy with the compression, take your time with the plug-ins, they all have their quirks, and as chrispick points out; hardware is still better than plugs.

i dream of an API lunch box everyday...

i started a thread yesterday about the URS 1980 comp here:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12219

there's a link to a song so you can get a taste of how it can be used.

peace!

FM

FM loves to love you, baby.

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Tue May 23, 2006 3:05 pm

Strictly speaking, you no longer need compression on initial tracking, even with drums, unless for some reason you're recording at 16-bit sample format instead of 24-bits. With modern A/D converters, it is extremely unlikely you will ever clip your signal going in. I sold off my last analog opto-compressor a year ago and there's been no looking back. One less thing to potentially degrade the quality of my initial tracking.

The URS plug-ins are very well done but are very characterful. I'm not sure these are the best tools for someone just starting out, as it will be harder for them to learn what is specific to the character of the emulation and what is general to compression as a technique. I also found the presets fairly useless for the source material I tried, so am not sure they serve as a good learning aide. I generally make my own custom presets anyway, but thought I might as well try what URS came up with to show off their plug-ins.

I've at least temporarily backed away from plug-ins and towards standalone digital hardware. I still want to avoid any D/A and A/D round trips, so have chosen medium-to-high-end gear that allows for S/PDIF connections via my MOTU 828 mk II. At this point in time I only occasionally do classical or all-acoustic work, so can get away with not being able to use 96k sample rates. I would say this is the key factor in whether dedicated external hardware is a workable solution for you.

The WaveArts PowerSuite has fairly good presets, and these are easy to study and learn from -- although even with those I came up with better settings on my own. Of course each source for programme material is going to have its own specific needs anyway, especially due to different miking techniques and room acoustics in the original sessions.

The TC Electronic Triple-C which I have just ordered (it's out of production, but the newer dual engine C300, while having less programmability, is a viable option at only $200), has an excellent interface and might serve as a good learning tool with its presets as well. I will post a review of my success with this unit within DP mixing projects after it arrives.

I do not personally consider the built-in dynamics tools of DP to be worthy of final mixes or even good learning tools due to their mediocre quality. If you want to really become adept at compression, limiting, and gating, you definitely need to have good tools at your disposal, and feel confident that the tools you are using (at least initially, while you are learning) are as transparent as possible.

Unfortunately most plug-ins fail in this regard, so you are probably better off with dedicated solutions and/or something like the UAD-1 or TC Powercore (I can't vouch for either, having never owned them, but my partner made excellent use of the UAD-1 on our new album).

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Tue May 23, 2006 8:56 pm

With pop/rock stuff I like to track through hardware compressors (LA3a, 1176LN, DBX160vu) because I like their sound on certain things, even with little or no gain reduction.
I usually don't record drums through compressors, except for a separate squashed room fx mic.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:28 pm

Yeah-- Poppa Donnie! Congrats to you and the Mrs-- (my compliments to the chefs).

All good advice youv'e gotten here. It's really amazing how generous and thorough everyone has been with their suggestions-- so much so that I have to say "thanks".

I would dare add humbly that one may think of the input signal more as peak limiting (as a matter of the settings you use) rather than all out "compression" per se. This is just to keep the rapid and radical dynamic transients under control without choking the air out of your drums. There's so much you can do afterwards to finesse the sound, but too much too soon means "no undo", which speaks to mhschmieder's suggestion of not using anything on input except under special circumstances.

I do like (and have often used) Tim's suggestion of just running the signal through a quality unit just for the benefit of the circuitry more than the gain reduc.

But it sounds like you're having a stellar week all the way around.

CIGARS AND CHAMPAGNE FOR EVERYBODY!!

musicdragon · Post by **musicdragon** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:19 am

Thanx Frodo, Yes the chef really cooked up one this time, lol

chrispick, mhschmieder, Tim, FM, kev I really appreciate all the info and the congrats on little Abby

Yes being a dad for the 1st time is quite the experiance. I have noticed over the past 5 weeks since she has been home I haven't slept or record very much,lol...

This was the info I needed you guys, thanx soooo much!!!

I think taking the tracking with no compressors and working the magic afterwards is the way to go for now with my current set up.

I have looked at wavearts and looks like a good start and I am also between the UAD-1 studio card and platinum waves for comps...

The project I am mixing now has 12 mics/trax for drums. No comps were used in the initial tracking and I just wanted to make sure that I can salvage them and not have to rerecord them.

These were trax recorded into vegas in 2000 and converted them into wav files and importyed them when I got my dp setup.

I just want to get the best overall drum sound and sending them to 1 aux really helped. Once I get some Reputavble plugs I'll try a comp on every track and see how that goes.

Thanx again for all your help with this

Abby appreciates it too, I have to get this cd finished and packaged so I can start sellling it and buy some Formula for the lil one, lol

PS IS their a chain of command???????????? Meaning EQ/Comp/reverb or should I compress before I EQ???????

Donnie

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:03 pm

First off, congrats on the daughter. My partner's wife had their first son in late March, the same day the CD's came back from the printer in Canada

. He's had to drop music for awhile, which has actually given me some breathing room to ramp up my own recording skills so that we're less hindered by the cross-platform compatibility issues next time around.

As for the chain of command, it is in some senses an artistic choice, but the reverb should almost always come at the end so that you don't boost the tail of the reverb with the compressor.

I generally run the EQ before the compressor, as I figure I better know what my peaks and valleys are at that point. Also because I now exclusively use spectral compression, as it helps avoid pumping and artifacts.

kelldammit · Post by **kelldammit** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:28 pm

another plus to putting eq before compression is that you can (with malice and forethought) shape what actually gets compressed. with some experimentation, it can be pretty cool. i'll usually experiment with it either way, and choose what i like best. so much for doing anything quickly...lol
many good plugs will allow you to change the order of the eq/compression chain, so you'll have the flexibility to experiment pretty easily. i could be mistaken, but i think wavearts channel strip plug allows you to do this, but i know for sure that the metric halo channel strip does.
auxing compression and using a mix of the compressed/dry signal can yield very nice results as well.

congrats on Abby

kell

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:31 pm

Congrats on the baby!