Ok, cut to the chase:
I want to take a harmony audio recorded on one track and align a beat to the same word in the lead line on another track. I don't want anything else moved. I did this in Cubase by slicing and moving and crossfading. Obviously the beat detection engine is a smoother way to go.
I read the manual cover to cover and it did what I expected: I digested it all, so now I KNOW what is possible. That doesn't mean I remember or learned how to actually do it. I looked in the index and I can't figure out how to actually do this.
I'd prefer not to mess with the conductor track, which has no relation to this rubato recording. I simply want to manually move a beat and have DP stretch the audio appropriately. I don't want to change where DP thinks the beat is in relation to the waveform, I want to make that spot in the recording stretch to earlier or later. Just want to drag that one spot. I know I could do it with slicing and crossfading, but isn't there a better and easier way?
A simply description or a page number will suffice. Thanks! If you're at all confused, I'll explain further, but I think it's pretty clear.
-Aaron
Beat editing / aligning
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This forum is for seeking solutions to technical problems involving Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS, as well as feature requests, criticisms, comparison to other DAWs.
This forum is for seeking solutions to technical problems involving Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS, as well as feature requests, criticisms, comparison to other DAWs.
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chamelion
- Posts: 946
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Maybe it's just me, but I suspect that the reason people aren't responding to this post is that they havent a clue what the problem is. Could you give us an insight into what you're trying to accomplish here? I'm having trouble trying to visualize a situation that would require the kind of functionality you describe.
Maybe that will get some action, if you haven't sorted it out by now.
Cheers,
Geoff
Maybe that will get some action, if you haven't sorted it out by now.
Cheers,
Geoff
"Don't worry,
be hoppy!"
be hoppy!"
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Spikey Horse
- Posts: 1841
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Really? oh gosh... Umm, I'll try again:
Two singers, harmonizing, with the words "The beat" each recorded to their own track.
One has the B in "beat" earlier than the other, but they're otherwise synced, so they end the T together.
Isn't there a way to use the beat detection engine to manually move one of the Bs until both Bs are at the same time, without moving the T?
I know I can slice the "Bea" out of one, move it in time, and do a crossfade so it smoothly connects to the "eat." However, the whole point of beat detection and timing changes is that time stretching is going to be smoother than slicing and moving, right? And that would also be a faster easier way to work. The BDE already put a beat right on the B, so I'd think that I could drag it in time and have DP stretch the audio accordingly. Is this not possible??? It seems so obvious to me...
Look, I know that I could set up a conductor track and manually put a conductor beat at the location of one of the Bs and then choose to quantize the other audio, but do I really have to go through that?? There's no reason it should have to be that complicated. I should be able to just manually quantize by dragging a beat in the audio file and have it stretch one way and squish the other. *Kinda* like manually pulling the beginning of a MIDI note to make the note longer without moving the end.
Visualize situations this would be needed: any time you want any beat in an audio file to be put in a place that isn't exactly quantized to the conductor track. Comparable to command-dragging for pitch to choose pitches that aren't always strictly equal tempered. If nobody here cares to do that, then I'm really dissapointed. I'd hope I'm not the only one here that thinks that we have artistic options in between the extremes of allowing timing to be controlled only by the live recording, or otherwise creating computer perfect junk that most pop music is these days. It's kinda like groove quantize, but just manually note by note, track by track. I don't always want groove controlled by an algorythm that was set up to quantize everything the same way every two measures, and I don't want to simply be a reactionary and say that I refuse to use technology to alter the recorded performance either.
With the BDE, I'd think I could move around individual events in time (since they've already been analyzed!) similar to how I can move around MIDI events, not affecting anything else and not necessarily in any relation to the conductor track.
Ok, if this isn't understood, then I guess this isn't possible. That'd be very unfortunate. This is a totally obvious functionality to me, since all the underlying mechanisms to make this possible are already in DP. If this isn't possible, this has GOT to be added soon. I couldn't believe I'd be the only one that would use this.
Could people respond that they at least understand now? If you don't, then I must be crazy, because I think I'm explaining very clearly.
-Aaron
Two singers, harmonizing, with the words "The beat" each recorded to their own track.
One has the B in "beat" earlier than the other, but they're otherwise synced, so they end the T together.
Isn't there a way to use the beat detection engine to manually move one of the Bs until both Bs are at the same time, without moving the T?
I know I can slice the "Bea" out of one, move it in time, and do a crossfade so it smoothly connects to the "eat." However, the whole point of beat detection and timing changes is that time stretching is going to be smoother than slicing and moving, right? And that would also be a faster easier way to work. The BDE already put a beat right on the B, so I'd think that I could drag it in time and have DP stretch the audio accordingly. Is this not possible??? It seems so obvious to me...
Look, I know that I could set up a conductor track and manually put a conductor beat at the location of one of the Bs and then choose to quantize the other audio, but do I really have to go through that?? There's no reason it should have to be that complicated. I should be able to just manually quantize by dragging a beat in the audio file and have it stretch one way and squish the other. *Kinda* like manually pulling the beginning of a MIDI note to make the note longer without moving the end.
Visualize situations this would be needed: any time you want any beat in an audio file to be put in a place that isn't exactly quantized to the conductor track. Comparable to command-dragging for pitch to choose pitches that aren't always strictly equal tempered. If nobody here cares to do that, then I'm really dissapointed. I'd hope I'm not the only one here that thinks that we have artistic options in between the extremes of allowing timing to be controlled only by the live recording, or otherwise creating computer perfect junk that most pop music is these days. It's kinda like groove quantize, but just manually note by note, track by track. I don't always want groove controlled by an algorythm that was set up to quantize everything the same way every two measures, and I don't want to simply be a reactionary and say that I refuse to use technology to alter the recorded performance either.
With the BDE, I'd think I could move around individual events in time (since they've already been analyzed!) similar to how I can move around MIDI events, not affecting anything else and not necessarily in any relation to the conductor track.
Ok, if this isn't understood, then I guess this isn't possible. That'd be very unfortunate. This is a totally obvious functionality to me, since all the underlying mechanisms to make this possible are already in DP. If this isn't possible, this has GOT to be added soon. I couldn't believe I'd be the only one that would use this.
Could people respond that they at least understand now? If you don't, then I must be crazy, because I think I'm explaining very clearly.
-Aaron
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stephentayler
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chamelion
- Posts: 946
- Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:24 pm
- Primary DAW OS: MacOS
- Location: Sydney Australia
Hi Aaron,stephentayler wrote:Sounds like you need Vocalign
Stephen
Yes, that makes sense now. I've never found a way to do what you're talking about automatically. I've spent more time than I care to think about isolating words and syllables and stretching them manually to get them in sync with another vocal part.(To manually stretch a soundbite in DP, place the cursor at the top right hand corner of the soundbite so that it becomes a hand symbol. Then you can drag it left or right to stretch it. Sorry if this is stating the bleeding obvious
]Which is why Stephen's right. Vocalign is a bloody godsend. If you haven't experienced it, Google it and check it out. It's amazing!
Cheers,
Geoff.
"Don't worry,
be hoppy!"
be hoppy!"
i think the feature in DP is called scale time...I dont have any experience with it for audio only MIDI stuff..check it out page 527...good luck!
Powerbook 1.67Ghz 1.5GB RAM, a few waves plugs, Digital Performer 4.61, Logic Pro 7.1.1, Kontakt 1.5, Garritan Personal Orchestra, Reason 3.X, MOTU 828 mkII
Geoff,
While I'm dissapointed, your supposedly obvious comment, was the best next thing. I really am just starting to learn the ins and outs of DP.
Cutting up soundbites and then stretching by dragging is VERY close to what I was initially talking about. The only difference between this and what I was talking about is that my description stretched and compressed in the middle of a soundbite. Basically my version would be the same as cutting a soundbite, stretching the end of one of the two new soundbites and compressing the end of the other so that they end up still touching each other. Then if the two soundbites were exported to be a single soundbite with the new stretch/compressed section and reimported, it'd be identical to what I wanted to do.
As is, ending up with everything chopped into separate soundbites isn't the worst evil. And this is way better than chopping into soundbites, and then overlaying two soundbites and crossfading. Or at the least, it's good to have both options.
I'll look into Vocalign, though thanks.
Overall, I never was asking for anything to be automated though. I'm fine manually lining things up. I just wanted to do it without clipping everything into soundbites, and to have it done by stretching rather than crossfading. I'll suggest my version to MOTU. I don't imagine it'd be too hard to implement.
I only have one further question then... How do I choose whether, when I drag and stretch a soundbite, DP aligns the beats to the conductor versus keeps them relative to each other within the soundbite?
Thanks everyone!
-Aaron
While I'm dissapointed, your supposedly obvious comment, was the best next thing. I really am just starting to learn the ins and outs of DP.
Cutting up soundbites and then stretching by dragging is VERY close to what I was initially talking about. The only difference between this and what I was talking about is that my description stretched and compressed in the middle of a soundbite. Basically my version would be the same as cutting a soundbite, stretching the end of one of the two new soundbites and compressing the end of the other so that they end up still touching each other. Then if the two soundbites were exported to be a single soundbite with the new stretch/compressed section and reimported, it'd be identical to what I wanted to do.
As is, ending up with everything chopped into separate soundbites isn't the worst evil. And this is way better than chopping into soundbites, and then overlaying two soundbites and crossfading. Or at the least, it's good to have both options.
I'll look into Vocalign, though thanks.
Overall, I never was asking for anything to be automated though. I'm fine manually lining things up. I just wanted to do it without clipping everything into soundbites, and to have it done by stretching rather than crossfading. I'll suggest my version to MOTU. I don't imagine it'd be too hard to implement.
I only have one further question then... How do I choose whether, when I drag and stretch a soundbite, DP aligns the beats to the conductor versus keeps them relative to each other within the soundbite?
Thanks everyone!
-Aaron
so, basically you would want the ability to stretch a soundbite from any point within the soundbite, rather than just from the ends. does that sort of sum up what you're saying? if so, i think it's a great idea.
for the record, dp can do this to a limited extent. if you drop a sync point in the sounbite, you can stretch one end of the bite and it will stretch from the sync point "anchor" instead of from the opposite end of the bite.
for the record, dp can do this to a limited extent. if you drop a sync point in the sounbite, you can stretch one end of the bite and it will stretch from the sync point "anchor" instead of from the opposite end of the bite.
You've got the idea. Thanks for mentioning the sync point, which I did read about but is good to remember. But that isn't useful here.blue wrote:so, basically you would want the ability to stretch a soundbite from any point within the soundbite, rather than just from the ends. does that sort of sum up what you're saying? if so, i think it's a great idea.
for the record, dp can do this to a limited extent. if you drop a sync point in the sounbite, you can stretch one end of the bite and it will stretch from the sync point "anchor" instead of from the opposite end of the bite.
My idea would be that the stretch from any point in a soundbite would be based on detected or placed beats. It would stretch and compress in one action (stretch one side of the moved beat and compress the other) and ideally have an option for this to either occur from the ends of the soundbite or for each of the two actions to only take place between the moved beat and the very next subsequent or previous beat. I think this would be an awesomely useful editing tool. And the way the BDE works, the main technical stuff behind this is already doable if there were only a command added to specify doing it.
If you understand, go ahead and suggest this to MOTU on your own! It can't hurt for them to hear it from more than one user.
-Aaron