MIDI, VIs, Latency and Apogee (non MOTU hardware)

catfishmusic · Post by **catfishmusic** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:37 am

Hey guys,

Longtime user. Haven't posted in ages. But I'm getting discouraged with DP's MIDI latency to the point of considering jumping ship. I don't want to so I'm really hoping one of you guys has a fix or workaround.

I used to have MOTU interfaces and when I did, I always did direct hardware play through when tracking MIDI with no problems. Monitor through effects always resulted in MIDI latency. Ok normal right?

I now have an Apogee Symphony. MOTU doesn't allow direct hardware monitoring with the Apogee. I can use Apogee's Maestro for audio tracks but for VI's I get that bad latency no matter what I do...With 1 MIDI track recording into a piano into Machfive...I have to be at 64 buffer for it to feel ok. And the latency is still noticeable at 64. It doesn't leave me a lot of headroom to track 30+ MIDI tracks. I've spent a lot of time on it, tried all sorts of things and read everything I can find but I think it's just a flaw in DP.

So I downloaded the Pro Tools 11 trial. Installed it and opened a new "Jazz preset" session...Tried the same exact piano into MachFive with buffer set to 256...at 256 the latency was WAY better in PT than the 64 buffer was in DP8. And when I did the test in DP it was only those 2 tracks and no plug ins....PT I had a full session open with all kinds of plugs. Right "out of the box" no fiddling, PT worked with no problems.

I'm 99% sure the issue is the fact that DP won't allow non MOTU hardware users to select the option of not monitoring through effects. And Meastro doesn't do any good with the VI's that I can find.

If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be super grateful.

Many thanks in advance.

bayswater · Post by **bayswater** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:56 am

catfishmusic wrote:I'm 99% sure the issue is the fact that DP won't allow non MOTU hardware users to select the option of not monitoring through effects. And Meastro doesn't do any good with the VI's that I can find..

My understanding is that direct monitoring works by bouncing the audio you route to the input of the audio interface directly to the output of the audio interface. Because there is no routing and processing in the computer, the delay/latency is removed.

This is different from what you are doing. You are running MIDI into DP (presumably via a MIDI interface) which plays a VI and then the audio from the VI is routed to the output of your audio interface. That means direct hardware monitoring versus monitoring through effects is irrelevant to the latency you are experiencing. You can't route the audio directly from the input to the output of the audio interface, because it never passes by the audio input.

I don't know why you are getting a noticeable delay with VIs. I don't get any more noticeable delay using a Lexicon Alpha than a MOTU 828, and both are comfortable at a 128 buffer and usable at 256. Have you tried your arrangement using Mach Five standalone with higher buffer settings? Not a great workaround, but at least would tell you if the problem is something specific to your DP settings.

wheever · Post by **wheever** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:03 am

A buffer of 128 in DP is pretty manageable. Be sure you're not monitoring the VI through a processor plug that adds extra latency. (Ozone is notorious for this, and has caught me out a number of times when I've forgotten it was on a master buss.)

catfishmusic · Post by **catfishmusic** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:59 pm

Thanks for the reply guys.

@bayswater: My understanding of hardware monitoring is the same, and didn't think Meastro would help, but wanted to try everything. When you use your Lexicon is the input monitor setting "monitor through effects" or "direct play through"? That is the problem for me I'm pretty sure.

@wheever: 128 was great when I had MOTU hardware with input monitoring set to direct hardware play through. Currently, I "could" work with 128 but I'm an experienced player and its VERY spongey and delay is noticeable for me. 256 is like I have a slap delay set to 100% wet. I only had 1 MIDI track and 1 MachFive piano instance....no plug ins on.

Yeah I don't know what the deal is. Other than the input monitoring not giving me a choice other than monitor through effects.

Since posting I actually bought Logic as well and tested on that. MIDI latency using 1 piano MIDI track and 1 instance of MachFive no plug ins. At 128 was great.

So best to worst latency for me was:
1) Pro tools 11 at 256 buffer
2) Logic X at 128 buffer
3) DP8 at 64 buffer

I REALLY much prefer DP, but I may have to switch. Both Pro Tools and Logic were better with no fiddling what so ever? I'm sort of desperate here guys anyone have any other suggestions?

bayswater · Post by **bayswater** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:11 pm

catfishmusic wrote:Thanks for the reply guys.

@bayswater: My understanding of hardware monitoring is the same, and didn't think Meastro would help, but wanted to try everything. When you use your Lexicon is the input monitor setting "monitor through effects" or "direct play through"? That is the problem for me I'm pretty sure.

It's play through. But that's irrelevant. When you play a VI, the audio can't go through the input side of the interface anyway, it only goes through the output. It originates in DP, or whatever DAW you are using to host the VI. So the concept of direct monitoring -- transferring the audio directly from the input to the output of the interface to bypass the signal path that causes latency, is meaningless in this case. Changing between "monitor through effects" and "direct play through" can only have an effect if the signal starts at the audio interface physical inputs, runs through the inputs and outputs in the DAW, and back to the physical output on the audio interface.

catfishmusic · Post by **catfishmusic** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:30 pm

Well I never had the MIDI vi problem when I was able to check direct hardware play through. Guess it doesn't matter bc I couldn't change it if wanted to.

Anyone else have any suggestions on a fix?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:33 pm

My first thought was what Weever said, look-ahead plug-in induced latency, but then I noted you said "no plug ins." I'm wondering if it's a Mavericks thing...

I'd suggest you call MOTU and consult with them.

catfishmusic · Post by **catfishmusic** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:17 pm

Thanks HC....yes I have a Tech Link started with MOTU tech support and I'm waiting to hear back.

Hoping one of you wise gurus would have a trick up your sleeve....anybody?

wheever · Post by **wheever** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:19 am

@catfish, I am also an experienced player, and at a buffer of 128, all but the fastest piano runs feel fine. I'm running DP with a Presonus interface, so it's not a MOTU hardware advantage thing. Something is up with your system, and I'm wondering if you ever did any I/O calibration.

Try an experiment: set a MIDI track to play a VI, preferably a piano, perc, or some other sound with a sharp attack; quantize the track to something simple, quarters or eigths; run an audio cable from an output of your interface back to an input; record the VI back to DP as audio; compare the attacks on the recorded notes to the placement of the MIDI source note, then tell us what you find.

Doing the above could be very informative!

HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:13 am

You could also route VI audio to a physical output then back into DP. Record both the MIDI performance and the audio from the physical output/input, then determne the actual latency by comparing the note on messages with audio attacks.

This won't solve your problem, but it will allow you to quantify the latency.

wheever · Post by **wheever** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:30 pm

Markus, man, that's what I just said!

catfishmusic · Post by **catfishmusic** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:11 pm

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I'll check that out and see what happens.

Since it works flawlessly in both Logic and Pro Tools I'm confident it's not a system issue but a DP settings issue or problem.

I have tech links sent to both MOTU and Apogee.

Are there any other apogee users out there? Are you guys having this problem?

HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:36 pm

wheever wrote:Markus, man, that's what I just said!

Duh. I guess I should read more carefully, eh?

Now the real question is, is that what SHE said?

wheever · Post by **wheever** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:02 pm

Markus: HA!

Meanwhile, CATFISH, yes, seeing whether or not it's a DP thing is what the I/O timing test is all about. Please check it and let us know!

catfishmusic · Post by **catfishmusic** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:15 pm

SOLVED!

Just wanted to follow up for anyone that runs into this issue. After a reply from Apogee, and lots of trial and error....I found the problem. Host Multiplier was somehow set at 4....changing it to 1 fixed it. I'm back in business. Amazing how much of a difference that made.

A side note: I'm a little disappointed that MOTU never replied to my Tech Link. Apogee replied in 24hrs, MOTU no reply in 6 business days.

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