Injury to Insult? SOS gaffs DP. New monthly REAPER column?

[Shooshie]

Wow you guys have gone on a long time about this..Wheeew!
I'm out of breath just reading.

It is clear there is passion on both ends.

For my 2 cents, I was impressed by some of the features I heard about in Reaper, like assigning any parameter to a MIDI controller. I'd personally like to be able to assign EQ cut and boosts to a vocal track to ride EQ>

So, I really hope that MOTU reads this. Because the real important point of all of this is that DP keeps up with all the young, hot programming that is going on out there.
If DP stays current, and starts seeing the great features in other programs and incorporates said features into DP, THAT will be the best defense against the whole world leaving DP.

The points made here have been interesting, but the only thing I got out of all of this is that DP needs to learn from cutting edge programming where ever it can so as to stay vital and relevant in today's ever-changing music market.

The other thing I got out of this is that "FREE" and "on your honor" doesn't work, despite the psychological BS presented.

For if "on your honor" worked, then the world wouldn't be stealing songs and the music industry wouldn't be in the bad shape it it!

We have all seen what people will do if given a chance to steal. It is called the broken music industry, that's what people create...

And one day, when all songs are mediocre or worse, because all "new releases" have been over run by amateurs running garage band...the question might be asked, was music ever better than this?

And the sad thing is, there might be a generation ahead that answers, "NO", this sampled garbage is the best.

So there is the future of "free" and "on your honor"

This post bears repeating, so I'm quoting the whole thing. TooDamn is one of the hard-workers in this group who usually doesn't have the time to read a long thread like this, much less respond to it in detail. He's also one of the people so secure in his place in this business and in this forum that he'll level with anyone and say what he thinks. There is wisdom in his words. He's one of many to whom I enjoy responding.

To Stickwolf and FMiguelez, you each defend your points with passion, and you've kept at it for a long time now. While Stickwolf has softened on some of his original claims, both people's points are still basically the same now as they were 24 hours ago. I have a dear friend who has taught me a lot about things I didn't know that I didn't know, if you follow my meaning. One of the things that makes her a serene companion for a road trip or studio colleague is her ability to accept things pretty much as they are without passing judgment. So, I asked her how she establishes order, and she replies "you judge a tree by its fruit." In other words, it's too early to judge Reaper, but we WILL see the answers to all our questions emerge over the next few years. Plus, we'll see which new features make the cut into DP and which turn out to be good press but not so great in action.

As for the current arguments, you're not changing each other's positions at this point. Fernando, you've put up an iron-clad defense and stayed your ground, which is honorable. I have to say that Stickwolf has demonstrated civility in ceding many of his overstated original claims while sticking to his philosophical territory like glue. Forgetting the fact that he has entered our forum for no purpose other than to argue his case, I think we can see honor in his motives and methods, even if we don't entirely agree with him.

There is value to the thread and its reincarnation for this debate. People have chimed in and stated their own opinions, which gives us all a lot to think about. Far be it from me to dissuade people from saying what's on their minds, but you guys might consider the fact that you haven't budged from your positions in quite some time. It's up to you.

Shooshie

[stickwolf]

Billf,
Don't tell me that I intend any slap against DP. I don't. In fact, I'm pretty certain I intend to criticize DP far less that you intend to criticize REAPER. Actually I'm 100% certain because I never intended ANY criticism of DP here. You're saying that I'm bashing DP by just comparing it to REAPER? That's not fair, and I've acknowledged all along that DP is a powerful product.

and to James, I agree that people don't feel guilt about pirating software that is similar to window-smashing etc. and they shouldn't. They aren't comparable. Software piracy is problematic because it makes an un-level playing field between those who pay and those who pirate. It also is dishonest. It also is a problem for concerns about funding continued development. It is not as bad as violent robbery, and while it may be nearly as bad as shoplifting it isn't as concrete or direct so it is harder to connect with emotionally.
But this is the same with copy-protection or legal penalties. It's more likely for people to feel guilty about window smashing and it is also easier to arrest people for window smashing. The distance and abstractness of software piracy causes both less guilt and also less possibility to effectively enforce the law or otherwise stop it.

As for my transition comment, besides the fact that it was partly facetious, all I'm really saying is that the music industry won't die. It may dwindle though. I don't want to be so pessimistic as to think that the result will be all crap though... but I'll admit that maybe I'm just being optimistic. I just think that the world is so large that there will always be a variety of things out there and judging what is good is hard too, that's a whole other discussion.


Shooshie,
I respect your almost all your points. I do take issue with one thing: I know that the folks here are a tight-knit little club and know each other and all, but the "outsider" attack you're giving is not only unhelpful, it is simply false. I've had a number of discussions with YOU among others here over the last many years mostly about use of DP. I've been infrequent enough that you don't remember because you are obviously extremely active here (and I know because I've also read lots of things that I didn't comment on over the years). But you're simply wrong about my coming here to engage in this. I was curious what people here were saying about MOTU's announcement that they are releasing MasterWorks plugs for other platforms (didn't see any mention of that though here). And this week, unlike usual, I had some time off so I browsed the forum and came across this topic and posted something a bit hasty and then got engaged in this discussion. I've admitted some hastiness in my writing, as you acknowledged. You're very hasty in assuming things about me and happen to be wrong. I've been a member almost as long as you, just very rarely active to your constant activity.

[toodamnhip]

Thanks for the nice words Shoosh...

And stickwolf, I do agree that you are not an outsider.

And I can relate to you in another way; I too have made a post or two that got me into quite a rabble about this or that, and I too have pissed off a whole forum or two in my time.

I think the last argument got me into trouble was coke vs pepsi or some other sort of religious argument.

So, I personally think you've gone too far out on a few too many illogical ledges in this thread...
But you've fought the good fight and I'm sure one day, you'll see one of my posts out on it's own ledge.

All in all, One of the things I love about this forum is that when members get "hot and heavy", you've got good guys like Shooshie and Frodo who voice a commonality that brings us all back together,,,

Come off the ledge stickwolk, let's have a cup of coffee, it's cold out there...lol

Be done with these squabbles...

Your group mate-Dave

[stickwolf]

I still stand by my general position.

But I'll say that a bit of my perspective is related to rationalizing these whole issues. What the hell good is it for us to all bitch and moan about undeniable facts of human nature that are leading to the demise of the music industry as we knew it in the past? I'd rather accept that music will just be free, along with the debatable quality concerns etc. and learn to adapt than just be some whiner in denial complaining and negative... if it turns out that this becomes the case. The war on piracy is LESS winnable than the war on drugs. I don't want to hang out with law enforcement people and bitch about the war on drugs... what a waste of time. And I'm not a drug user, it's just about facing reality. If I'm pessimistic, I say that there's no future for me to have any real income from making music and I need to deal with that and try to accept it and be positive rather than just stew in negativity and resentment. The idea that people might actually be honorable and that I could actually be part of a new music industry based on enough people honorably paying me for my music... that is very appealing and I don't want to give up the idea, and I seriously believe it is possible enough to actually be partly realized, enough to function. And the idea of getting all you folks to be part of promoting this positive new possibility instead of bitching about the completely unwinnable war on piracy... well, seems worthwhile. All the time you otherwise spend on piracy is just completely wasted. I hate that this is the case today but we have to face it and find some other strategy... and these concerns are the motivation for my position and are the biases I bring to my views...

[billf]

Billf,
I'm pretty certain I intend to criticize DP far less that you intend to criticize REAPER.

I said nothing of the sort. Please go read my comments again.

[billf]

What the hell good is it for us to all bitch and moan about undeniable facts of human nature that are leading to the demise of the music industry as we knew it in the past?

I actually agree with you on this point. The demise of the music industry is far more complicated than some want to admit, and has as much to do with media consolidation, changing demographics, the American Idolization of music, more choices for entertainment, music as an adjunct to video and games rather than a standalone product, and so on. Mix in all of that with the disruption of networking, and you have a situation where the old rules are challenged in a major fashion. To my mind it is better to find new ways that work. You argue that the honor system is one path, others say CP is the way. Who's right? Time will tell I guess.

[James Steele]

I'd rather accept that music will just be free, along with the debatable quality concerns etc. and learn to adapt than just be some whiner in denial complaining and negative... if it turns out that this becomes the case.

We were expressing a realistic outlook. So who are you calling whiners? We just take a different outlook than you do. And I don't accept that music "will just be free." That's a load of bulls%^t. You know what will be free? Crap music. That's what will be free. Because there's no incentive to make something good if you're going to lose money on it.

The war on piracy is LESS winnable than the war on drugs. I don't want to hang out with law enforcement people and bitch about the war on drugs... what a waste of time. And I'm not a drug user, it's just about facing reality. If I'm pessimistic, I say that there's no future for me to have any real income from making music and I need to deal with that and try to accept it and be positive rather than just stew in negativity and resentment.

Again, you're projecting on us that we're "stewing in negativity." We're just calling it was it is. You're "pessimistic" or "facing reality"-- we're negative and resentful? I get it. Fact is, some of us aren't going to accept that the war on piracy isn't winnable. We don't have to win... but there has to be an effort to hold back some of the more blatant theft. You can mock companies for employing copy protection and call them dinosaurs because they don't take the "kinder, gentler" position on pricing and copy protection that Cockos does, but Cockos has maybe two or three employees and they have the luxury of doing this. On top of it, it's the only way they could gain a foot hold being a relative newcomer in an established space.

The idea that people might actually be honorable and that I could actually be part of a new music industry based on enough people honorably paying me for my music... that is very appealing and I don't want to give up the idea, and I seriously believe it is possible enough to actually be partly realized, enough to function.

No doubt. And the idea of riding a fluffy white unicorn through a green pasture past the lollypop trees as we join hands and sing "Kumbaya" is very appealing as well. Only problem is I can't so easily ignore past human behavior and what typically happens when you give away goods and services and ask for voluntary payment. You see, the problem with downloading is there is no face-to-face over the internet. The person taking and not paying for your music doesn't have to look you in the face before he ignores your virtual tip jar. He's anonymous. He can stiff you without any shame. And you might get "partly realized"... that's true. And for some, holding down a second job for the rest of their lives in order to sustain themselves is just par for the course. The flip side is your time may be so divided that you'll never excel in either job.

And the idea of getting all you folks to be part of promoting this positive new possibility instead of bitching about the completely unwinnable war on piracy... well, seems worthwhile. All the time you otherwise spend on piracy is just completely wasted. I hate that this is the case today but we have to face it and find some other strategy... and these concerns are the motivation for my position and are the biases I bring to my views...

Give me an example of the positive possibilities of free music. I'll be interested to hear it.

Also, the time that I spend on piracy isn't wasted. Maybe you weren't aware of the flagapirate email list at Yahoo Groups. That's where people like myself and others here have actually done something. We have barely more than 30 members, but thanks to musicians who care enough to join the fight, we flag down ads of pirates trying to sell software illegally on Craigslist. So I've done something and so have others. You can say we must find some other strategy... that's cliché. I'd like to hear a strategy. Instead I'm hearing that it's not worth trying to fight piracy, we should lay down our swords and surrender. I don't think so.

Since you're not interested in letting this thread die, I'll just put it out of my misery right now.