Injury to Insult? SOS gaffs DP. New monthly REAPER column?

[James Steele]

Stickwolf-- I'm about to kill off your constant ad and promo piece you're conducting for Reaper. I don't allow advertising nor such blatant cheerleading for competing DAWs on this forum. You can bet the "brochure copy" is going away. Now you're simply abusing the opportunity.

Don't you have a Reaper forum to hang out in?

[James Steele]

Oh and when you try to assert that Reaper will someday surpass DP or Logic, I first think that your wrong, but I also think that regardless of intentions or how you spin Cockos' motivations, you sure won't mind benefitting from the aggressive undercutting on price that is having a predatory effect similar to dumping no matter how you dress it up in altruism.

THAT is why the SOS matter and how Reaper is building its market share bothered me. Regardless of whatever feel-good hippie philosophy is behind Reaper's pricing and lax copy protection, it's ironic that the company is deriving a marked benefit which couldn't have been planned better by the most cut throat capitalist.

[FMiguelez]

Oh and when you try to assert that Reaper will someday surpass DP or Logic, I first think that your wrong, but I also think that regardless of intentions or how you spin Cockos' motivations, you sure won't mind benefitting from the aggressive undercutting on price that is having a predatory effect similar to dumping no matter how you dress it up in altruism.

Reaper is a newish DAW. There's no way in hell it can touch DP in the past, present or the future. DP is one of the oldest and pioneer DAWs, and experience can not be gained in a short time.
Reaper will keep getting better and better, no doubt, but so will Digital Performer. It's got a clear edge over Reaper (Film scoring features anyone?), and if MOTU keeps on surprising us all the way they've done lately, it will leave the competition left behind in the dust. It's getting there!

BTW, anyone wants to bet how long it will take the other DAWs to imitate DP's themes? It won't surprise me if R did it first

[James Steele]

Reaper already had a themes type feature. Remember, we had a Reaper user show up in this forum wanting us to give him full size screen captures so he could copy DP's themes and port them to Reaper. He even got a hold of DP's theme bundles, posted them online for other Reaper users, and also put some of the graphics directly into a Reaper theme. When called on it he said it was a "test" and he wasn't really going to use the graphics directly.

[stickwolf]

Sheesh.

I don't really care that much about promoting REAPER, I was more responding to the quick-to-judge attitude of people here underestimating it. It's not so much that I want to just promote REAPER, it's more that I don't like dismissive hearsay to be spread around. DP is very powerful, absolutely. But if you haven't really used REAPER maybe you should refrain from implying that it is weaker or more basic or whatever. It definitely has a lot of room to improve, but it is a deep program. All I'm really saying is that you shouldn't judge it when you didn't really try it and fully evaluate it. I think it is far more capable than many people guess. And I'm more concerned about prejudice generally than about promoting some product.

[FMiguelez]

Sheesh.

I don't really care that much about promoting REAPER, I was more responding to the quick-to-judge attitude of people here underestimating it. It's not so much that I want to just promote REAPER, it's more that I don't like dismissive hearsay to be spread around. DP is very powerful, absolutely. But if you haven't really used REAPER maybe you should refrain from implying that it is weaker or more basic or whatever. It definitely has a lot of room to improve, but it is a deep program. All I'm really saying is that you shouldn't judge it when you didn't really try it and fully evaluate it. I think it is far more capable than many people guess. And I'm more concerned about prejudice generally than about promoting some product.

So are you saying it has all of DP's features? If it doesn't, then it's clearly inferior, unless it has a lot of things DP can't do. I only know of 2 such things, but they are so insignificant to me that it's moot.
DP has more features than I usually need. It works great, it lets me concentrate on my music without technical disturbances, it looks beautiful, and it puts food on my table. That's all I ask for.

BTW, there is no single DAW out there that gets more unjustified vitriol from so many people than DP. Just see how people talk about it over there... they are even abusive, something we have not done here at all. Trying to defend DP over there would be completely futile. What for? Do you really care what some guy over at GS has to say about DP or what DAW he thinks is best?

Also, please remember this is a MOTU-DP forum. What did you expect to read?

Besides, will your music sound better if done in R or DP? No. Will it be easier and faster to produce it, more fun and enjoyment doing it, and with a much better workflow in DP? Yes, of course

I want to mention that I have not ever used R, but I have a couple of friends who use it and have demoed it for me. I was VERY VERY VERY underwhelmed by it.

Oh, and I can't believe I almost forgot to mention this: none of them has paid for it. I can bet my right arm they will NEVER do it

[toodamnhip]

Wow you guys have gone on a long time about this..Wheeew!
I'm out of breath just reading.

It is clear there is passion on both ends.

For my 2 cents, I was impressed by some of the features I heard about in Reaper, like assigning any parameter to a MIDI controller. I'd personally like to be able to assign EQ cut and boosts to a vocal track to ride EQ>

So, I really hope that MOTU reads this. Because the real important point of all of this is that DP keeps up with all the young, hot programming that is going on out there.
If DP stays current, and starts seeing the great features in other programs and incorporates said features into DP, THAT will be the best defense against the whole world leaving DP.

The points made here have been interesting, but the only thing I got out of all of this is that DP needs to learn from cutting edge programming where ever it can so as to stay vital and relevant in today's ever-changing music market.

The other thing I got out of this is that "FREE" and "on your honor" doesn't work, despite the psychological BS presented.

For if "on your honor" worked, then the world wouldn't be stealing songs and the music industry wouldn't be in the bad shape it it!

We have all seen what people will do if given a chance to steal. It is called the broken music industry, that's what people create...

And one day, when all songs are mediocre or worse, because all "new releases" have been over run by amateurs running garage band...the question might be asked, was music ever better than this?

And the sad thing is, there might be a generation ahead that answers, "NO", this sampled garbage is the best.

So there is the future of "free" and "on your honor"

[FMiguelez]

For if "on your honor" worked, then the world wouldn't be stealing songs and the music industry wouldn't be in the bad shape it it!

We have all seen what people will do if given a chance to steal. It is called the broken music industry, that's what people create...

And one day, when all songs are mediocre or worse, because all "new releases" have been over run by amateurs running garage band...the question might be asked, was music ever better than this?

And the sad thing is, there might be a generation ahead that answers, "NO", this sampled garbage is the best.

So there is the future of "free" and "on your honor"

Those are damn hip points!!!!! I could not agree with you more.

The only thing I'm not sure about is what you mentioned about DP "not being left behind"... I think it's pretty current, especially now with 7.2. But MOUT must not rest on their laurels and keep on improving it more.
We have a GREAT DP 7.5/8 wish list where dozens of users posted their concerns, wishes, suggestions, etc, that could give MOTU awesome ideas on what to improve and implement them doing it the MOTU way.
If they listen to us there, that will guarantee DP will not only stay current, but will be ahead of the bunch

[billf]

But I understand the hesitation to bother trying it. Good enough is good enough. DP works for you, then great. I still like DP in a lot of ways.

I never said I haven't tried Reaper. I said that I don't find their business model to be a sufficient enough factor to lure me over to add them to my toolset. DP and Logic are the two mainstays in my work, and will remain that way. FYI, I have tried Reaper. It is a good app, but there is nothing "killer app" about it IMHO. If they do something groundbreaking that no one else can do, and if it becomes a "must have" then I will revisit my decision.

That said, if you come into a Digital Performer user group forum and start extolling the virtues of a competitor, expect to be challenged, and challenged hard. But please refrain from the backhanded insults of DP. They contribute nothing but ruffling feathers. Too often someone will come here and yell some vague complaint about DP, and then claim that new DAW x, y, or z is light years better. I have yet to see any of those claims substantiated. DP is a deep program, deeper than many realize. I've been using it since version 2, and I'm still finding new things in it.

So in closing, if you like Reaper, great. If you don't like DP, or want some new feature, send a message to MOTU and discuss it with them. Now I'm going back to work.

[stickwolf]

No, REAPER does not have all the features of DP, far from it. Yes, REAPER has some substantial features that DP lacks. So there's no one program that has it all. In general, DP is still the more mature program but some of REAPER's benefits are notable enough to be substantial.

FMiguelz,
Those friends you mentioned who did not pay for REAPER... do they actually use it? Have they actually recorded with it and put out actual music or are they just demoing it? If the former, shame on them! If the latter, I don't consider this piracy. From what you said, I don't know if your friends are Logic or DP users or something who were just testing out REAPER... that's the sort of jumping to conclusions that I'm wary of. Do you know that they were really using it already for extended time?

And toodamnhip, you seem to have missed my point. I never said that "on your honor" just works, period. The point is simple: there's evidence that public honor systems that ask people to do the right thing for intrinsic reasons may be more effective at curbing theft than punishment responses. But both honor systems and punishment will fail to eliminate stealing entirely. There's evidence that honor systems are superior, more effective than punishment, though BOTH are not necessarily that effective, depending on tons of particular details.
But furthermore, telling people "stealing is illegal!" is not anywhere near as effective at encouraging honorable behavior as saying "I hope that you're an honest person and do the right thing and support artists you like".

Before people just tell me I'm wishy-washy, feel-good, and out-of-touch, let me just put it this way: feelings of GUILT can be a more powerful motivator than fear of punishment. I'm not saying that we should just be nice and pretend that everyone is perfect and honest. I'm saying that the best answer we have is to figure out how to make everyone feel REALLY GUILTY for doing the wrong thing. And one of the best ways to do that is to establish a cultural norm that respectable, admirable people act a certain way. In the daycare study, the parents felt guilty coming to pick up kids late but when a fine was instituted they just said "whatever, I don't need to feel guilty, I'm playing by the rules and if I'm late I pay the fine" and they stopped caring as much about trying to be on time. And it was hard to get them back to feeling guilty about being late even when they ended the fine policy.

So my point is that if you just go to pirates and ask them to be honest you won't get anywhere. But if you, like Cockos, tell people to be honorable, then the guilt of crossing the line to stealing (if an individual in question has not pirated yet at all) is a stronger deterrent than some copy-protection or legal threat. Of course this is best when socially reinforced, as in we need people to feel embarrassed to tell their friends that they didn't pay for REAPER and friends who will admonish someone for that. Once someone crosses the line, it is harder to get them to be honorable again (but not impossible, because people are nuanced). Again, I'm not excusing the pirates, I'm saying that if our broad culture used honor and guilt to teach children to be just it would be more effective than punishment/reward. And this idea is supported by psychological research in many areas.

Oh, and regarding my DP vs REAPER use: I'm currently about even on them. I've been involved in this forum on and off (mostly off though) for about 5 years, and I've only used REAPER for about two months. I didn't come here to argue against DP or anything. I'm making points generally about software business stuff and society here in this "off topic" section of the forum. I don't have any misconceptions about it.

[FMiguelez]

Those friends you mentioned who did not pay for REAPER... do they actually use it? Have they actually recorded with it and put out actual music or are they just demoing it? If the former, shame on them! If the latter, I don't consider this piracy. From what you said, I don't know if your friends are Logic or DP users or something who were just testing out REAPER... that's the sort of jumping to conclusions that I'm wary of. Do you know that they were really using it already for extended time?

One of them uses Reaper exclusively, and it's been a long time, so he does know all its features very well.
He was a former Cubase pirate, but he kept having issues with it (because it was a pirate copy).
Cynically, he said Reaper was better because it was free (notice he ignored the Honor System) and he didn't have to do whatever he had to do to run the pirate Cubase copy (he had to jump through some kind of hoops. But it's the same guy who didn't mind having to reinstall his pirated copy of Waves EVERY WEEK - I think he also had to cheat the dates or something).

The other one has like every audio app that has ever been released. Yes, all pirated copies. And he uses them all, but I doubt he knows their depths.

I said they were my friends, but they are not really friends, more like colleagues or acquaintances. I've tried to talk them out of pirating, but they are almost as stubborn as you are.
But it's always worth it for me to try to convince all the people I know to stop stealing/pirating. It has worked in a lot of cases. One even bought DP, Mach5 and Ethno, can you believe that!!?!?!?!?

But furthermore, telling people "stealing is illegal!" is not anywhere near as effective at encouraging honorable behavior as saying "I hope that you're an honest person and do the right thing and support artists you like".

I tell people that thing all the time. Do you want to know what their answer is? Nah! Suffice to say that they pretty much laugh at me and consider me an idiot for spending my money on those "free apps".

And toodamnhip, you seem to have missed my point. I never said that "on your honor" just works, period. The point is simple: there's evidence that public honor systems that ask people to do the right thing for intrinsic reasons may be more effective at curbing theft than punishment responses. But both honor systems and punishment will fail to eliminate stealing entirely. There's evidence that honor systems are superior, more effective than punishment, though BOTH are not necessarily that effective, depending on tons of particular details.

I am sorry, but your naivete is showing. It's screaming. Do you really believe what I bolded in your text above? I mean, like REALLY?????

I wish you could come down here and talk to a typical Mexican pirate. He would laugh you off the Country with your "nice asking" and out-of-this-world ideas!!!!
These people need AN IRON FIST. They need to be educated and civilized.

And you have not produced proof of your claims at all. OTOH, reward/punishment works much better, at least with this kind of people (thieves).
Some time ago I read this article where, surprisingly, some of the lowest theft-rates in the world occur in some middle-east countries (don't remember where exactly). Do you know why? Because if caught stealing, they will chop your hand off!!!!

How's that for a real solution that really works? They don't ask nicely, and don't have this honor system. They don't need to. They are more pragmatic (in this aspect only).

[FMiguelez]

.

Before people just tell me I'm wishy-washy, feel-good, and out-of-touch, let me just put it this way: feelings of GUILT can be a more powerful motivator than fear of punishment. I'm not saying that we should just be nice and pretend that everyone is perfect and honest. I'm saying that the best answer we have is to figure out how to make everyone feel REALLY GUILTY for doing the wrong thing.

Oh my goodness!!! I don't know if I should cry, scream, or laugh at those statements. I had pointed out you seemed naive, but with this you just hit a new world record of absurdity.

Please try to make these guys "feel guilty" about pirating something. PLEASE:



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So my point is that if you just go to pirates and ask them to be honest you won't get anywhere. But if you, like Cockos, tell people to be honorable, then the guilt of crossing the line to stealing (if an individual in question has not pirated yet at all) is a stronger deterrent than some copy-protection or legal threat. Once someone crosses the line, it is harder to get them to be honorable again (but not impossible, because people are nuanced). Again, I'm not excusing the pirates, I'm saying that if our broad culture used honor and guilt to teach children to be just it would be more effective than punishment/reward. And this idea is supported by psychological research in many areas.

Yeah, and the real-life results are very encouraging, right? That's why most Reaper users have paid for it, right?

Oh, and regarding my DP vs REAPER use: I'm currently about even on them. I've been involved in this forum on and off (mostly off though) for about 4 years, and I've only used REAPER for about two months. I didn't come here to argue against DP or anything. I'm making points generally about software business stuff and society here in this "off topic" section of the forum. I don't have any misconceptions about it.

I'm sorry but you have too many misconceptions about many things. You are giving people too much credit and putting on them too much faith.
Trust is EARNED and NOT given away just like that.

Too many people will cheat on you the second you let your guard off. Fortunately, there are always worth-having friends whom one can trust.

[stickwolf]

Right... because someone gets tattoos and goes out of his way to look really tough, well that's obviously an indication having no capacity for feeling guilty or having any conscience. Whatever. That's obviously a reflection of the culture. Look, all the people around him are just this same. He'd probably feel guilty if he failed to steal something the way his gang says he should. He's just a reflection of his culture.

Look, all this stuff is a social-level issue. It's like your point about Mexico vs Norway. You're cherry picking the bits of my statements in order to avoid addressing the nuance that I added to clarify. I don't believe anything in lone sentences, it's a package-deal.
You can't succeed in convincing your acquaintances when they live in a world where their social norms say that their behavior is ok. I'm still right about my claims about guilt and honor, but it only works on a large scale. It works better in Norway than in Mexico.
And likewise, you are right that punishment is more effective in a society where real honor is already gone.

Your whole example is consistent with my point: you CAN'T realistically get those guys to feel guilty. I'm not arguing. But if you COULD get them to feel guilty, they would be more motivated by that than by punishment.

The whole point I'm making is that we need to support honor where we find it and be careful not to break it by treating everything with punishment/reward approach. Once honor is broken, it is much harder to repair.

Oh, and don't go saying that you think the justice and honorability in the Middle-East is your model for ideal. You want to have honor-killings for alleged adultery?

In the end, everyone wants to live in a fair system. People who don't pirate feel ripped off by the pirates. People who pirate don't want to pay because THEY would then feel ripped off by those still pirating. Sure it is hard to get a cheater to change his ways, but it is much harder to stop general cheating in society one-person-at-a-time. People are more willing to stop cheating if everyone else stops cheating. People don't want to play by the rules in a game where everyone else is cheating. You don't want to, but you do anyway although you complain about it. So broader social shifts are necessary.

[shaman]

Stickwolf I agree with all your words.

FM, thinking about "on your honour" is as naive as thinking about "copy-protection". Do you think that piracy can be stopped with "copy-protection", I don't think so.
OTOH, why do you paid to get DP? For fear of punishment? Or because that is the right way to get it? If you choosed the last one, don't you think that "on your honour" works in the same way as "copy-protection"?
I have already said this: I think Reaper is using a marketing strategy to be a popular DAW. Do not compare it with DP or Logic, every company have a different strategy to get more customers. And every DAW have features that others doesn't, and vice-versa.

But, don't get me wrong. Punishment can help to fight piracy (but you don't need to cut the hand of everybody who steal software), education can help a lot. But it is time to get to customers in some other ways: Logic Pro 7 had a price of $999, now you can get Logic Pro Studio 9 for $499, and without the xKey!, now you can get for a limited time 5 IK Multimedia products for the price of 1. I don't know if that is useful for these companies (they will analize it, i think), but I'm very happy as a customer and that motivate me to buy those products.

[FMiguelez]

Stickwolf I agree with all your words.

FM, thinking about "on your honour" is as naive as thinking about "copy-protection". Do you think that piracy can be stopped with "copy-protection", I don't think so.

And please tell me WHEN or WHERE did I say such a stupid thing?????? I think you are confusing me with someone else...

OTOH, why do you paid to get DP? For fear of punishment? Or because that is the right way to get it? If you choosed the last one, don't you think that "on your honour" works in the same way as "copy-protection"?

Uhhhhh.... NO and NO.

I bought DP because I never even considered any other options (like pirating it).

In my family we do not steal. Nobody had to teach me not to steal. My parents are honest people, and that's what I learnt by influence, imitation and observation.

But, don't get me wrong. Punishment can help to fight piracy (but you don't need to cut the hand of everybody who steal software), education can help a lot. But it is time to get to customers in some other ways: Logic Pro 7 had a price of $999, now you can get Logic Pro Studio 9 for $499, and without the xKey!, now you can get for a limited time 5 IK Multimedia products for the price of 1. I don't know if that is useful for these companies (they will analize it, i think), but I'm very happy as a customer and that motivate me to buy those products.

Yes, and now-a-days I have to do 2 jingles for the price of one. Or 3 TV series for the price of 2 or even 1. That has not helped MY economy at all. Same work but for less money. Nice!

Also, remember Logic is owned by Apple. They could give it away for free and wouldn't hurt them one bit 'cause they're huge. MOTU, because it's a small company, can not compete with that pricing.