Multitrack Drum Beat Detection

[rogerginira]

Hi to everyone!
How can I edit multitrack Drum recordings phase-locked in DP 6/7 ?
Logics "Flex Time" and Pro Tools's "Elastic Audio or Beat Detective" can do it .
Any way to get it In DP 6/7 ? Do I missing something?
Thanks a lot.- Greg

[magicd]

Choose one drum track as the main guide track. Typically kick or snare. Copy Beats from that track to the other drum tracks. All tracks will now edit based on the same beat map. Therefore - phase accuracy.

Dave

[rogerginira]

Hey,Great!
I did not imagine that it would be so simple ...
Anyway...sometimes the simplest way ist the best choice!
Thanks!

[Tesionman]

Choose one drum track as the main guide track. Typically kick or snare. Copy Beats from that track to the other drum tracks. All tracks will now edit based on the same beat map. Therefore - phase accuracy.

Dave

It would be great to see a video demo of this.
Anyone??

cheers

[Todzilla]

I;ve been trying this on DP 6.2.

Everything works the way it should until I hit the "Apply" button on the copy beats dialog. Then nothing happens. The "Copy From" track stays the same, but there's still no beats copied to the other selected track. It even wipes out the beats previously detected in the non-copy-from track.

And I've set the sensitivity so that the preview shows the recipient track is going to have those beats.

It's so weird. I haven't been able to successfully use this feature, so I'm kind of flummoxed.

Any ideas?

[Tesionman]

I sent Magic Dave a PM about this and he answered this:

"I recommend adjusting beat sensitivity before you copy an beat maps. What you want is a very simple beat map that contains only the beats that you want to quantize.

Once you have a track with an adjusted beat map, show all the tracks you want to quantize in the Sequence Editor window. Make a region selection (Command A to select all).
Choose Copy Beats from the audio menu. Select the track from which you want to copy the beats. Apply. Now you can quantize all tracks and they will all use the same beat map.

Dave"

Hope it helps.
I wish it was simpler like Elastic Audio/Beat detective in Pro Tools or Flextime in Logic.
Hope Motu sets up a simlper feature like those in the near future!

Cheers

[Todzilla]

Still flummoxed. I've set beat sensitivity and detection full on (to the right), I've got all the beats I want visible in the guide track. I select all the tracks I want to quantize as a group (from sequence window) INCLUDING the mono guide track which I've edited for just right beats. I then perform Audio>Copy Beats. It prompts me with a Copy Beats dialog. I choose the guide track in the "Copy Beats from" box, set Beat Velocity Threshold 80% to the right (until I can see gray vertical beat indicators), then I click "Copy" and all beats ;disappear from the selected tracks (except the guide track, whose beats remain intact).

Any clues as to what I'm doing wrong?

[rogerginira]

Choose one drum track as the main guide track. Typically kick or snare. Copy Beats from that track to the other drum tracks. All tracks will now edit based on the same beat map. Therefore - phase accuracy.

Dave

Unfortunately this workout is NOT Phase coherent! Tried it with very glitchy results !
I can assure, I tried out every option possible, but there is no way!
I love DP for a lot of things but after a lot of tests and after comparing this aspect with other DAWs I must say that the missing of phase-accurate multitrack editing is unacceptable for a professional DAW !!

[MartinBaird]

This is not working for me either. I followed Magic Dave's instructions exactly but when I Quantize nothing happens. Very strange. I certainly wish there was a good tutorial (written or video) to explain how to do this in DP.
Anyone have any ideas?
Thanks Much,
Martin

[Shooshie]

Choose one drum track as the main guide track. Typically kick or snare. Copy Beats from that track to the other drum tracks. All tracks will now edit based on the same beat map. Therefore - phase accuracy.

Dave

Unfortunately this workout is NOT Phase coherent! Tried it with very glitchy results !
I can assure, I tried out every option possible, but there is no way!
I love DP for a lot of things but after a lot of tests and after comparing this aspect with other DAWs I must say that the missing of phase-accurate multitrack editing is unacceptable for a professional DAW !!

And yet some of the finest professionals in the world, including many very famous ones, find DP to be the best DAW available.

How is it that one minute we're talking about making beat maps and suddenly you've made the leap that DP is "missing phase-accurate multitrack editing?" As one who has measured recorded waves of various audible frequencies from within DP's editor windows and done the math, I can tell you that they are sample-accurate.

As for the beat map question, I do my tempo maps from a combination of Record Beats and Adjust Beats. Those two, together, make for a high precision tempo map, and are in my opinion the most reliable ways of doing this. Another would be to record a drum track with a single drum, such as snare or hi-hat, and use it to find the beats. Personally, I don't think you'll get a perfect beat map using any recorded track. It requires Adjust Beats to trim things up and get the precision you want in a tempo map. That's not due to DP's inability to find the beat; it's due to the inability of the majority of human beings to play a perfect tempo track with drums, horns, or anything else. People move the beats around as they play, and that's why we have "Adjust Beats."

When you've done thousands of beat maps in DP, you see things a little differently. Between any DAW and any human there is a margin of error. There simply must be a way to fix that, smooth it out at times, tighten it up. DP has the tools to do all the above and more. My suggestion is to keep doing them until you figure out what works for you and the type of tracks you're working with. Unless there is some new bug I don't know about, DP will work fine. It's up to you to practice it until you learn what works and what doesn't. Get your hands dirty and do it. Yes, it takes a lot of time. As you get better at it, that time decreases, partly because you learn to lay down better tracks, and partly because you learn what to look for, and how to make it work. Sorry I can't give you a better step-by-step than the manual or Magic Dave. I'm afraid the rest is up to each individual.

Please, as you have your "aha" moments, come back and tell us what's working for you.

Shooshie

[Todzilla]

I am experimenting with these features in DP 8. I can get them to work (kind of), but there are still cases where some of the drum tracks don't quantize in phase with the others and I get a flam, even though I did the "Copy Beats" to ensure all tracks had the same beat markers. I suspect this is an issue with the velocity sensitivity setting in the "Copy Beats" feature. I would welcome some information on how this velocity sensitivity setting works.

And I strongly agree with previous posters that a video would be great. Right now the MOTU channel on YouTube only has a single track example up. While it's helpful, the challenges of multiple tracks (e.g., drums) are significantly greater and require different tools to work correctly. Each of these tools has different parameters that can be tweaked, but it's unclear what, exactly each parameter does to contribute to success/failure in time aligning a whole set of drums.

Magic Dave's info on the Tips sticky is a good starting point, but having searched "Copy Beats" in these forums (forae?), I found there's still lots of confusion and not many answers to how to successfully pull of this procedure.

<mic_drop>

[Kind Of Loud]

I am experimenting with these features in DP 8. I can get them to work (kind of), but there are still cases where some of the drum tracks don't quantize in phase with the others and I get a flam, even though I did the "Copy Beats" to ensure all tracks had the same beat markers. I suspect this is an issue with the velocity sensitivity setting in the "Copy Beats" feature. I would welcome some information on how this velocity sensitivity setting works.

And I strongly agree with previous posters that a video would be great. Right now the MOTU channel on YouTube only has a single track example up. While it's helpful, the challenges of multiple tracks (e.g., drums) are significantly greater and require different tools to work correctly. Each of these tools has different parameters that can be tweaked, but it's unclear what, exactly each parameter does to contribute to success/failure in time aligning a whole set of drums.

Magic Dave's info on the Tips sticky is a good starting point, but having searched "Copy Beats" in these forums (forae?), I found there's still lots of confusion and not many answers to how to successfully pull of this procedure.

<mic_drop>

This is what I do, and I get no flams or phasing.

First....I'll beat detect the kick. Then, while in the waveform editor, I'll zoom way in, and between the mute tool, and Control D ( Adjust Beat Sensitivity ), I'll disable all beats, that are not the kick. Also....I'll check for any missed beats, on any of the kick transients, and add as needed. And...I'll make sure that all the beats, fall on the beginning, of any transients, by grabbing them and moving them into place. Lotta leg work for sure, but worth it.

Now that my kick beats are good, I'll do a tempo map, using adjust beats. Once that is done,
I'm ready to slice the drum tracks. I work eight measures, at a time. I don't slice up, all the drum tracks, in one operation, and then quantize.
So if it's bars 1-8, I'll Command A all drum tracks, and make a cut, at bar 8. Then I'll make an "Edit Group" for bars 1-8.
Click on the kick, all tracks in my group highlight, and the I drag the scissors tool across the kick track, and all the tracks are sliced up, from the beats in my kick. With everything in my group still highlighted, it's Command 0, and quantize. Edge edit, cross fades, done. No flams. No phasing. ( "Copy Beats" and 'Create Soundbites From Beats" works good too. I just like using the scissors tool, to scroll across slowly, to see what's happening. )

I'll also do the same procedure for the snare, in the Waveform Editor, like I did for the kick. ( Before tempo mapping, and slicing ) Then if there are any spots, where the snare is a bit off...I can use the scissors tool, and just slice up those snare parts in my edit group, and fix those manually, to the grid.

As you have already noted. Slicing up a multi tracked drum kit, is a lot different, than a solo track. There's a bit of prep work, ahead of you, before you slice and quantize. It's not a simple matter of just analyze beats, slice, quantize, done...In two minutes.
MAN..!!! That would be great...!!!

Good luck, and I hope this helps.

[Todzilla]

I am experimenting with these features in DP 8. I can get them to work (kind of), but there are still cases where some of the drum tracks don't quantize in phase with the others and I get a flam, even though I did the "Copy Beats" to ensure all tracks had the same beat markers. I suspect this is an issue with the velocity sensitivity setting in the "Copy Beats" feature. I would welcome some information on how this velocity sensitivity setting works.

And I strongly agree with previous posters that a video would be great. Right now the MOTU channel on YouTube only has a single track example up. While it's helpful, the challenges of multiple tracks (e.g., drums) are significantly greater and require different tools to work correctly. Each of these tools has different parameters that can be tweaked, but it's unclear what, exactly each parameter does to contribute to success/failure in time aligning a whole set of drums.

Magic Dave's info on the Tips sticky is a good starting point, but having searched "Copy Beats" in these forums (forae?), I found there's still lots of confusion and not many answers to how to successfully pull of this procedure.

<mic_drop>

This is what I do, and I get no flams or phasing.

First....I'll beat detect the kick. Then, while in the waveform editor, I'll zoom way in, and between the mute tool, and Control D ( Adjust Beat Sensitivity ), I'll disable all beats, that are not the kick. Also....I'll check for any missed beats, on any of the kick transients, and add as needed. And...I'll make sure that all the beats, fall on the beginning, of any transients, by grabbing them and moving them into place. Lotta leg work for sure, but worth it.

Now that my kick beats are good, I'll do a tempo map, using adjust beats. Once that is done,
I'm ready to slice the drum tracks. I work eight measures, at a time. I don't slice up, all the drum tracks, in one operation, and then quantize.
So if it's bars 1-8, I'll Command A all drum tracks, and make a cut, at bar 8. Then I'll make an "Edit Group" for bars 1-8.
Click on the kick, all tracks in my group highlight, and the I drag the scissors tool across the kick track, and all the tracks are sliced up, from the beats in my kick. With everything in my group still highlighted, it's Command 0, and quantize. Edge edit, cross fades, done. No flams. No phasing. ( "Copy Beats" and 'Create Soundbites From Beats" works good too. I just like using the scissors tool, to scroll across slowly, to see what's happening. )

I'll also do the same procedure for the snare, in the Waveform Editor, like I did for the kick. ( Before tempo mapping, and slicing ) Then if there are any spots, where the snare is a bit off...I can use the scissors tool, and just slice up those snare parts in my edit group, and fix those manually, to the grid.

As you have already noted. Slicing up a multi tracked drum kit, is a lot different, than a solo track. There's a bit of prep work, ahead of you, before you slice and quantize. It's not a simple matter of just analyze beats, slice, quantize, done...In two minutes.
MAN..!!! That would be great...!!!

Good luck, and I hope this helps.

Kind of,

Thanks, that helps a bit. I'm still having a problem in that i see beats in, let's say, the kick drum track. I select all the drums tracks in a section and do an Audio->Audio Beats->Copy Beats. I use the kick drum as the "from" source. I hit apply and nothing appears to happen (regardless of where I set the threshold). When I go to quantize Beats and Sounbites, nothing changes. I have confirmed the waveforms have beats, but I'm not sure how to adjust the various sensitivity settings in order to make this happen.

Before I get in to all the slicing and perfecting, I need to at least get the basic copy-then-quantize function to work. I'm in an absolute quandry. This is my number one plea for a video. There's one video out there on quantizing a single track of guitar playing, which we know is a whole different ball of wax.

Thanks

[Kind Of Loud]

Kind of,

Thanks, that helps a bit. I'm still having a problem in that i see beats in, let's say, the kick drum track. I select all the drums tracks in a section and do an Audio->Audio Beats->Copy Beats. I use the kick drum as the "from" source. I hit apply and nothing appears to happen (regardless of where I set the threshold). When I go to quantize Beats and Sounbites, nothing changes. I have confirmed the waveforms have beats, but I'm not sure how to adjust the various sensitivity settings in order to make this happen.

Before I get in to all the slicing and perfecting, I need to at least get the basic copy-then-quantize function to work. I'm in an absolute quandry. This is my number one plea for a video. There's one video out there on quantizing a single track of guitar playing, which we know is a whole different ball of wax.

Thanks

The reason you can't copy beats, into the tracks, is probably because you're using the "I Beam", or "cross hair cursor", to make s selection. You need to select the tracks, by either "Command A", or by clicking on them directly.
So....You want to copy beats from the kick, into all the tracks..?? Have all your tracks showing, that you want beats copied to.......Hit "Command A", and then bring up the copy beats window, and hit apply.
If it's just a section, like bars 1-8..?? Then you need to do like I described above. Make a cut in all the tracks, at bar 8. Then create an Edit Group, for bars 1-8. Doing this, when you click on one track in the group, they will all be selected. Then just copy your beats.

Word of warning: If you want to quantize multi mic'd drums, don't use the quantize "beats within soundbites". Time stretching will work for a mono track, ie., guitar, bass, etc. But it creates phasing, and other artifacts, when applied to a multi mic'd drum kit.
Try it for yourself though, and you be the judge.

Also....You need to do, all your prep work in the Waveform Editor. Select each track, one by one, and make sure there are no beats in any tracks. You want to start with a clean slate.
Now you can beat detect your kick.
Then you need, to clean out all the junk beats, except the ones for your kick. You need to show DP, what beats you're looking to work with. In this case it's the kick.

Next thing I do, is select the whole soundbite, and apply "Delete Disabled Beats In Selection".
Why...???
Because when you switch back to the Sequence Editor, and bring up either "Copy Beats", "Adjust Beat Sensitivity", or "Adjust Beat Detection", those commands have that slider, you can adjust. And all the beats you just disabled, will now become active again. Some will, some won't. But either way, all your work, in the Waveform Editor, will now be messed up.

Good luck.

[dave pine]

if you have logic, why not do it in logic and then import it to dp, i've tried this many times thru the years in dp and never got good results, even with tech support on the phone, dp is way behind on this.... period.... some of you have done it, but it should be way easier than it is..