Audio recording latency issue

[silent k]

HI all -- a few months back I upgraded to DP 11, and mostly it's been smooth sailing with my old DP 9 projects (never did get around to getting DP10), but with new projects I've developed some latency problems when recording audio. Here's my setup:

2015 iMac (3.2gHz quad core Intel i5 processor)
24GB RAM
DP 11
EZ Drummer 3
MOTU 828x Thunderbolt interface
OWC USB 3 DriveDock w/SSD for audio recording and playback (plugged directly into the iMac and not through a hub)

This afternoon I was trying to record a guitar track to a project that has one instance of EZ Drummer, a stereo track for bass, and another for piano. I have are a few insert effects here and there (compressor on the bass, reverb on the master channel), but nothing crazy. I'm recording my guitar through my Line 6 Helix via the S/PDIF inputs on the 828x, as I've always done, and am finding that there seems to be a lag in the recording. When I go back to the recorded audio, I can see there is a several millisecond gap between, say, a Marker point in my DP project, and when the recorded audio actually starts. I thought it was just my crappy, off-time playing, but it seems pretty consistent. If I take the audio and scoot it over so the first recorded note matches the Marker point, everything is synced up and it sounds fine.

The other twist is I'm trying to record my new projects at 24 bit/48kHz instead of 16/44.1 to hopefully buy myself a little more headroom. I haven't yet tested whether going back to 16/44.1 eliminates the problem, but figured I'd put this to you all to see if you had any advice. I'm worried my computer is getting a bit long in the tooth for this, although I wasn't getting any errors or warnings from DP that the processor is being taxed too heavily. Do I need to change buffer settings or something else to compensate when recording at 24/48? I've been using 16/44.1 for so long, maybe I need to change my settings somewhere. Any advice is welcome!

[mikehalloran]

…
hrough my Line 6 Helix via the S/PDIF inputs on the 828x
…
I have are a few insert effects here and there (compressor on the bass, reverb on the master channel)
…

Ok, a few questions:

What is your buffer setting in DP? See if you can set it to 128 or even 64.

Are your effects in DP or are you using CueMix from your 828x?

If DP, are they on Track inserts, Aux's or the Master?

If DP, lose them. Don't just bypass, remove both from the track. If this improves RTL (round trip latency) try adding Reverb first. Test again. If your compressor has a "look ahead" feature, turn that off while tracking as that will be a major source of RTL

If using CueMix, take a good look at your DP template and remove all effects. It's quite possible that you have an old version of something gumming up the works. I had this issue drive me nuts a couple years ago till I realized that I had RX6 on a piano track—being in Bypass mode didn't help. The RTL on that one track was nearly a full second.

[silent k]

Thanks, as always, for the detailed reply, Mike. Much appreciated.

What is your buffer setting in DP? See if you can set it to 128 or even 64.

Are your effects in DP or are you using CueMix from your 828x?

If DP, are they on Track inserts, Aux's or the Master?

If DP, lose them. Don't just bypass, remove both from the track. If this improves RTL (round trip latency) try adding Reverb first. Test again. If your compressor has a "look ahead" feature, turn that off while tracking as that will be a major source of RTL

The effects are all Track inserts, and in DP only -- I haven't used Cuemix for applying effects before. I had one reverb insert effect on the Master bus as well. I took all of those out, and reduced the size of the buffer to 64. Unfortunately that wasn't enough to get rid of the gap, so I reduced the project back down to 16-bit/44.1kHz. That seemed to make things better -- now if there are timing issues they seem to be only because of my playing rather than having a consistent delay/gap, as was the case before. I'm thinking my computer may not be up to the task of running what I need while also recording at 24/48, and that's fine for now but I wouldn't mind having the extra headroom at some point. I like having a few simple effects (like the compressor on my bass, which is just the MOTU effect that's native to DP with no look-ahead) running while I'm tracking stuff, so for now I'll give up the headroom in favor of being able to work like I'm used to. Thanks again for the help!

[mikehalloran]

Thanks, as always, for the detailed reply, Mike. Much appreciated.

What is your buffer setting in DP? See if you can set it to 128 or even 64.

Are your effects in DP or are you using CueMix from your 828x?

If DP, are they on Track inserts, Aux's or the Master?

If DP, lose them. Don't just bypass, remove both from the track. If this improves RTL (round trip latency) try adding Reverb first. Test again. If your compressor has a "look ahead" feature, turn that off while tracking as that will be a major source of RTL

The effects are all Track inserts, and in DP only -- I haven't used Cuemix for applying effects before. I had one reverb insert effect on the Master bus as well. I took all of those out, and reduced the size of the buffer to 64. Unfortunately that wasn't enough to get rid of the gap, so I reduced the project back down to 16-bit/44.1kHz. That seemed to make things better -- now if there are timing issues they seem to be only because of my playing rather than having a consistent delay/gap, as was the case before. I'm thinking my computer may not be up to the task of running what I need while also recording at 24/48, and that's fine for now but I wouldn't mind having the extra headroom at some point. I like having a few simple effects (like the compressor on my bass, which is just the MOTU effect that's native to DP with no look-ahead) running while I'm tracking stuff, so for now I'll give up the headroom in favor of being able to work like I'm used to. Thanks again for the help!

You are tracking with effects in DP. Your compressor is the likely but not the only possible cause. Try this:

Open your Project. Remove all plug-ins from all tracks. Do Not Save! Instead, Save as New Template—this will not alter your original project which you now Close without Saving.

Open this new template. Save — it will ask you to rename so call it Plug-in Test or something like that. Your RTL should be gone—not really gone but the speed of sound is so slow that you are unlikely to hear it. Now add in plugs that do what you want without causing delay. Again, you cannot use plug-ins with Look Ahead while tracking and many compressors (and a few reverbs) will introduce delay no matter what. None of this affects playback while mixing etc.

If you can't get the tracking RTL down to an acceptable level, time to learn CueMix — it's built into your 828x and was designed to allow near zero latency while tracking on Macs going back over 20 years ago.https://motu.com/products/motuaudio/828x/cuemix-fx.html

[HCMarkus]

Not sure if this still happen in DP11, but on older versions, if you record enable an audio track, then change the buffer size before you record, your recorded audio will be misaligned.

[silent k]

OK, so I've tried a variety of things and am having no luck. I even saved my project as a DP9 file, thinking maybe it was a DP11 issue, and also switched back to EZDrummer 2 from 3 -- no dice. Removing the effects from the channels is not helping, either, so now I'm wondering if the problem is somewhere in the OS. I'm running OS 12.6.8, and I think 12 is the latest version of MacOS that can run on my iMac. I'm going to open a ticket with MOTU and see if they have anything to add -- perhaps there's some weird quirky edge case that I'm running into here.

Mike, you mentioned using Cuemix, which I have installed and have mostly used for the FFT analyzer while mixing -- I'll have to read up more on how to use it in conjunction with DP.

Not sure if this still happen in DP11, but on older versions, if you record enable an audio track, then change the buffer size before you record, your recorded audio will be misaligned.

This is good to know -- I'll avoid that. Thank you!

If MOTU has anything to add, I'll include it here. Many thanks for the help!