Option to patch buss comp between main outs and monitors? Stupid idea?

[James Steele]

So I have an AudioScape Buss Compressor on order. I'm finally getting around to setting up my patchbay and I'll need to be doing some soldering soon. So anyway, a weird idea popped into my head.

First... the problem. More and more people are doing I guess what they call "top down" mixing? The idea is to have some compression/limiting on your main stereo buss while you're mixing (or even before that composing). It's just nice to give you some vibe during the process. Only problem is, those sorts of plugs introduce latency.

I plan to have the Buss Comp wired to a stereo pair of ins and outs on my 828es and use the hardware insert plug-in to use it when I need to during the mixing process, most often on the stereo buss. That said, there's unavoidable round trip latency using the hardware insert plugin. Of course if I recall correctly (not sure offhand) it's not much... might be negligible which just shoots what I'm about to ask right out of the water I guess. But I'm just thinking out loud.

My idea was to put the inputs/outputs of my buss compressor on my patchbay as well as the main outs of the 828es (normalled to the inputs to my monitors) so that I have the option of patching the buss compressor between the 828es main outputs and my monitors. The reason for this would be to just sort of have an enjoyable more polished mix while composing and tracking without any latency. When it came time to mix, obviously I'd take it out of the signal patch and then use a hardware insert as normal when latency doesn't matter.

Is that stupid? Again, I guess if the RTL is very short I could just leave it on the insert all the time and not worry about it. Thoughts?

[James Steele]

Again... might be a stupid idea... so be gentle. LOL. I'm also thinking that having it between main outs and monitors would subtly affect decisions about EQ, etc. but if it's just during the composing arranging phase it might be okay going on the assumption that things may get tweaked when it's out of the signal path.

On the other hand if it turns out that there's a specific setting that I like to use and I have it set that way most of the time... patching it from between the main outs and monitors to a hardware insert plugin on the Master Fader should sound pretty much the same?

[dwilliams]

I have a Tegeler Audio Creme in my patchbay. I can take the outputs of DP through it, as you are suggesting, then print through it at the end. FWIW, I can also route the signal through a BAE 1073 for vibe. However, I find the latency with the hardware insert on the 2-buss to be inconsequential.

I always start the mix with Creme in and usually change the settings very little mix to mix.

Caveat - I have multiple hardware compressors. When I just run the Creme on the 2-buss the following isn't an issue (technically, there is, you just don't notice it because nothing is out of sync). However, for me, DP has a bug where the hardware insert plugin miscalculates the latency. So if I have hardware inserts anywhere besides the 2-buss, they will be out of sync when I open a project. I have to open each hardware insert one-by-one and click the calculate button twice (with the speakers muted because there is a pop) whenever I open the project. Once I do this, everything stays synced. So the work around is no big deal but a) it takes time and mouse clicks, b) is a PITA, and c) if I'm coming back to a project I've not worked on in a while, I forget about this and spend five minutes going "what the eff is going on here?'. This is super annoying and I hope MOTU fixes this issue.

[monkey man]

Doesn't sound like a bad idea at all to me James.

I'd stick to using it, as you suggested, for the composing / tracking / inspiration phases only for now 'though.

[James Steele]

However, I find the latency with the hardware insert on the 2-buss to be inconsequential.

Ahhh... good to know! I figured as much so it will save me time from doing something pointless. Makes sense that since it's analog all that is involved is round trip through the 828es converters and back in again. For my inserts for my 76F and WA-2A that's 44 samples. Should be that for all analog outboard as well. Going out to a digital device that has analog I/O is a different situation of course. Oh well... only stupid questions is the one you don't ask I suppose?

However, for me, DP has a bug where the hardware insert plugin miscalculates the latency. So if I have hardware inserts anywhere besides the 2-buss, they will be out of sync when I open a project. I have to open each hardware insert one-by-one and click the calculate button twice (with the speakers muted because there is a pop) whenever I open the project. Once I do this, everything stays synced. So the work around is no big deal but a) it takes time and mouse clicks, b) is a PITA, and c) if I'm coming back to a project I've not worked on in a while, I forget about this and spend five minutes going "what the eff is going on here?'. This is super annoying and I hope MOTU fixes this issue.

Not just you! I know about that bug and reported it to MOTU months ago. Trust me, I feel your pain. I've recently been very interested in adopting a hybrid approach and incorporating outboard analog into my workflow. I now have a Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F and the AudioScape Buss Comp should arrive next week. I do intend to wire the WA-2A and 76F to a patch bay though as I want the flexibility to patch the output of my mic pre or U5 DIs into either or both of them on the way in when tracking. So it's very important to me that MOTU works out these hardware insert problems.

I'd with MOTU would perhaps adopt the approach that Avid uses, where you set up an insert, name it, enter the latency offset (in milliseconds instead of samples which actually makes sense... it will adjust if you change sample rates)and from that point on you don't have to worry about it. It's also very solid. You open up a project and the hardware inserts are there just how you left them, correct latency offset, and they just work. Also I like the fact that the plug-in takes on the name of the device. In DP all you see is "Hardware Ins..." Not that helpful. Would be really nice to see that improved.

In fact, I sent a very detailed email to MOTU with mockups of what I'd like to see done with the Hardware Insert plugin. I'll see if I can find it now...

Ahh here it is... my one little suggestion. It appears I sent this to MOTU in July of 2023. Sigh. Note that this little "feature" should not be any big programming challenge. It's not getting the device name off a bundle, etc. Just name the instance. Maybe it's more complicated than that. I'm concerned that MOTU, I guess, has more pressing concerns that robust outboard hardware integration. This makes me

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[James Steele]

Doesn't sound like a bad idea at all to me James.

I'd stick to using it, as you suggested, for the composing / tracking / inspiration phases only for now 'though.

Yep... turns out though and this makes sense that it's only 44 samples of latency at 48k... so it's negligible. I will probably keep it on a good general setting when composing, etc. and then when I'm ready to mix, I might then dive deeper and do some homegrown "mastering." I am growing fond of hardware. Last night I pulled up an old project and substituted the hardware insert and my AudioScape 76F 1176 clone for the compressor plugin that was there previously. I don't think I'd every dialed in a lead vocal to sit nicely in the mix so quickly. I really like the hardware.

[EMRR]

No problem. I tun hybrid anyway, most mixes are through hardware and come back in, so the setup is similar. Patch as needed. I occasionally route individual tracks out and back too, and print things like my Space Echo and plate reverbs so they’re available fully ITB.

[monkey man]

Doesn't sound like a bad idea at all to me James.

I'd stick to using it, as you suggested, for the composing / tracking / inspiration phases only for now 'though.

Yep... turns out though and this makes sense that it's only 44 samples of latency at 48k... so it's negligible. I will probably keep it on a good general setting when composing, etc. and then when I'm ready to mix, I might then dive deeper and do some homegrown "mastering." I am growing fond of hardware. Last night I pulled up an old project and substituted the hardware insert and my AudioScape 76F 1176 clone for the compressor plugin that was there previously. I don't think I'd every dialed in a lead vocal to sit nicely in the mix so quickly. I really like the hardware.

Yup, I hear you James and agree with you and EMRR.

Peeps can say what they want but in my experience analogue (not digital, although there may be exceptions of course) hardware still has magic that can't be beat.

[dwilliams]

Love this.
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