Control surface conundrum...

grimepoch · Post by **grimepoch** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:38 am

So I have been debating for a LONG time about another control surface for DP. I have owned two different Radikal Technologies SAC2.2 control surfaces and honestly just never cared for either (they updated the second one and their drivers got a lot better).

Lately I've been torn between going the alphaTrack way (a single fader) or going with the new Mackie control surface. I've never been one to sit at the board for a long time, and have gotten used to 'mousing' in DP. What I worry about is how efficient it is with 8 faders to be moving up and down the mixing board, AND, how much information you get from the mackie device for the tracks.

I want at least one fader so I can record movements when going through a song. I am DONE using the mouse to draw in automation. Is it easy to say map a parameter to the slider, or is it always locked to track volumes in DP?

I do a lot of synth work in the piano roll, so it's not like I need to get away from DP so much. But, I have a feeling when I am doing my mixing once the song has been written, using real faders might help a bit more in working through the mix.

Thoughts? Ideas? Things you hate, things you love?

corbo-billy · Post by **corbo-billy** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:13 am

Hi _

Do you use your SAC2.2 Radikal Teknologies with the Mac Pro?
Because, this one interests me but don't see drivers in Universal Binary for this Control Surface _

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:39 am

With SAC and Radikal out of the picture, there's not much left.

Mackie MCU-- but there's much debate as to whether the new version is ready for prime time along side the caveats of the current version.

Then there are the Tascam FW and DM series units. Tascam at least has the *onions* to mention DP control layers in their specs. That doesn't mean they will do what people prefer them to do, let alone what YOU need them to do.

JL Cooper? Expensive and too generic are the common complaints... Are they Customizable to the point of usability? Varies from one user to the next.

gP- you started with some of the best and they let you down. Digidesign has done the right thing for Pro-Tools at a wide variety of price points.

I really wish MOTU or someone would make a DP-specific control surface. I mean, crimminey-- Garageband has its own unique surface, for crying out loud.

Garageband!!

I dunno-- Mackie MCU-8 is still getting the highest marks with DP even with its caveats.

iMAS · Post by **iMAS** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:41 am

I've become quite accustomed to mouse mixing.

Now if only I had about 10 mouses and 10 hands...

I guess I suffer from the "not enough mouse and hands" conundrum.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:43 am

iMAS wrote:Now if only I had about 10 mouses and 10 hands...

... you'd be frightful at chess!!

(and that would be "mice"

)

iMAS · Post by **iMAS** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:45 am

Frodo wrote:
iMAS wrote:Now if only I had about 10 mouses and 10 hands...
... you'd be frightful at chess!!

Correcto Frodo. I could checkmate ten Unicornation-ers at once !!

spirit · Post by **spirit** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:50 pm

The previous MCU's did a lot that was good, and a lot that was DP specific, even if they weren't perfect in all ways. A single fader covers 80% of fader needs- unless one does a lot of crossfading or moving from one fader to the next.
But say one wants to try various places to mute or solo several tracks that otherwise wouldn't be in a group- one can make a new group for them which might have to be deleted after the experiment- or if they are close enough together that they can be together on one's control surface this can be done manually.

Also, it can be significantly faster to find which track is still in solo, or check if there is a track in record or autorecord by bank shifting through large numbers of channels (at least with mutliple control surfaces (16 or more faders) ). With large sessions this can be slower to do with the oncreen mixer or tracks window, especially with track names too large to be decipherable with the mixer window in narrow view. Unfortunately the Tascam 2400 doesn't show track names so it can be limited in this regards.

It can be faster to do repeated tasks assigned to a button as opposed to navigated the cursor with a mouse and clicking, or using a three key shortcut command i.e. setting punchin or memory points etc. Of course one could change the commands window to have a minimum of keys required for the most used functions, but a control surface can be like having a number of additional "function" keys. Used in combination with mouse and key strokes it speeds things up a bit. Play, rewind, record etc. can be a bit more intuitive than rembered keyboard shortcuts for some people. In some situations it can allow one to work at more distance from the computer.
After using a control surface going without one seems slower and laborious, but if forced to do without one might adapt.

Doesn't DP allow the use of multiple types of Control Surfaces? so maybe the Radikals could serves as extra faders with another control surface- though the different types might bank switch seperately (Hui's and MCU's seem to work this way when used together in DP unless they are all in HUI mode).

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:41 pm

I have talked to a few manufacturers and INSISTED they design a control surface like the Mackie Control, one of them didn't listen and instead moved backwards. They tried to design a new control surface, but it was going to be about $3k so we advised not to do it--it wouldn't sell. But I insisted they do a MODULAR product, but they just don't get it!!!!!!!

Because of this, Mackie is the only option. Now, that's not a bad thing as the MCU is a very good product! But competition spawns better technology and upgrades for the future. The consumer needs to have choices.

Alesis coming out with a product that looks promising, I'm looking forward to trying it. But until then, the MCU is a proven product and frankly--it's about your only choice.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:47 pm

BradLyons wrote:I have talked to a few manufacturers and INSISTED they design a control surface like the Mackie Control, one of them didn't listen and instead moved backwards. They tried to design a new control surface, but it was going to be about $3k so we advised not to do it--it wouldn't sell....

Thanks, Mr. Lyons! Always good to have your input.

Crimminey-- anyone who'd put out a controller fully compatible with DP would have a virtual monopoly on the market. DP users would be salivating over such a thing on boards (such as this one).

$3k MSRP to double my DP productivity time? Heck- I'd be all over it in a heartbeat. How much would it cost me to change platforms-- or to build one of these myself?

martian · Post by **martian** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:54 pm

I just got hold of an original HUI and it blows my FW out of the water!

reason ? simple - LEDS that name the faders..... the jog function is way more controllable than the FW too ( in either native or HUI or other emulations)

the LED's on the aux sends are also way better - and overall I think it's a better build quality - haven't really got into the buttons yet....

What I haven't figured out yet is how to go thru the banks of faders without changing the tracks on view in the seq editor.... unless I get the meter bridge on screen..

I know it's poss cos I did it once!!!

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:01 pm

martian wrote:I just got hold of an original HUI and it blows my FW out of the water!

reason ? simple - LEDS that name the faders..... the jog function is way more controllable than the FW too ( in either native or HUI or other emulations)

the LED's on the aux sends are also way better - and overall I think it's a better build quality - haven't really got into the buttons yet....

What I haven't figured out yet is how to go thru the banks of faders without changing the tracks on view in the seq editor.... unless I get the meter bridge on screen..

I know it's poss cos I did it once!!!

I'd heard great things about the original HUI :

http://www.harmony-central.com/Newp/200 ... -large.jpg

and also about the Baby HUI...

http://www.shreveaudio.com/Mackie/HUI.jpg

When Mackie boasts about better build quality of the new machines, it makes me wonder why they risked cutting corners in the first place.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:09 pm

This is only partially OT, but as GarageBand enjoys its own controller, I stumbled across this. It's for Nuendo, but doesn't DP deserve something similar?

http://www.smartav.net/pd_nuendo.html

martian · Post by **martian** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:21 pm

wow! that one on their page is completely startrek!

yeah it would impress the clients for sure!

an associate of mine uses nuendo and it's something I considered but would like a more complete demo of as it's expensive compared to DP

and I'm loving mixing in DP at the minute... and this HUI is making it real easy!

just gotta solve that hiding of trax thing when going thru the banks

I sort of like the way protools handles it - the bank simply highlights the trax it's controllin

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:42 pm

martian wrote:wow! that one on their page is completely startrek!

yeah it would impress the clients for sure!

an associate of mine uses nuendo and it's something I considered but would like a more complete demo of as it's expensive compared to DP

and I'm loving mixing in DP at the minute... and this HUI is making it real easy!

just gotta solve that hiding of trax thing when going thru the banks

I sort of like the way protools handles it - the bank simply highlights the trax it's controllin

I borrowed a friends Tascam UB-224 and hope to put it to good use for the moment.

Star Trak... should I only live so long and prosper...

martian · Post by **martian** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:01 pm

wow that's dinky!

but actually 5 faders might actually be enough -

I'm mainly using it to push my sub masters....