Seeking recommendations for books on Midi-Orchestration

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Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory and the art of creating music in all forms from orchestral film scores to pop/rock.
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Frodo
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Re: Seeking recommendations for books on Midi-Orchestration

Post by Frodo »

zuul-studios wrote:
It seems as if one has to have a degree in sound engineering in order to achieve a more realistic sound of a recorded orchestra.
Not to worry. There are plenty of people with degrees in sound engineering who have the brains but not all of them have the "ears".

Yes, there are really three sides to this:

1. Understanding how a real orchestra works
2. Understanding how a virtual orchestra works in a virtual environment
2. Understanding how the two are similar, and how they are not at all alike

If only there we had three lifetimes to figure it all out....
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skyy38
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Re: Seeking recommendations for books on Midi-Orchestration

Post by skyy38 »

Firstly, I'll set you up with a basic "survival kit" as it were.

Go here to learn orchestration for FREE!

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/for ... on-On-line" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
***************************************************************************
Print out this item, put it in a page protector and refer to it always for pan positions ( I'll explain more later )

https://smartsite.ucdavis.edu/access/co ... chestr.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

***************************************************************************

Print this document out and put it in page protectors AND a three ring notebook because you will be reading this one over and over!

http://www.malonedigital.com/starwars.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

***************************************************************************

Get a copy of this and rip it to your computer-This is a fine reference for ALL things orchestral, be it musical or technical.

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Origina ... B000003G8X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

***************************************************************************

More later!
skyy38
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Re: Seeking recommendations for books on Midi-Orchestration

Post by skyy38 »

zuul-studios wrote:Hello -

Just recently found this bulletin board. I've been a happy owner of MOTU products (audio devices) for a long time. They all work just fine, so I don't have a need (at present) to problem-solve any issues. :)

I am, however, wanting to improve my MIDI-based orchestration skills. Although I believe that my orchestral compositions are clear and concise sounding, they tend to lack the depth of the more "realistic" sound of a recorded orchestra. I'm interested in creating MIDI orchestral templets that will create that more "realistic" sound. I noticed on the Amazon web site that there are a least a few instructional/educational books on MIDI-orchestration. I'm seeking guidance in making a purchase for an instruction book that will meet my needs. Any suggestions??

A little bit about me. I'm a full-time ICU/CCU nurse. I also have a background (and hold a Bachelor Degree) in Film Composition that I received 30 years ago. (They didn't have MIDI, back then. I wrote music using pencil to manuscript paper and film-scored using either a up-right or flatbed movieola!! LOL!) (By the way, I STILL use "pencil to manuscript paper" as part of my compositional process, especially for the larger projects!)

I want to be able to have more control to the SOUND of my MIDI-sequences. Although I don't mind the "clear and concise" sound that I'm able to produce, I also want to be able to create a convincing sound of an orchestra as if one was listening to the music while sitting in the front-middle of an orchestra hall. (Hopefully that makes some sense! LOL!) I've heard very convincing 100% MIDI sequences of orchestral compositions that sound this way, created by very talented composers/sequencers/sound-engineers. I guess I want to be able to do what these talented people are able to do.

Thank you in advance for your thoughtful suggestions. :

Ted
Ted, can you please post a link to any work you may have on the web?

Thanks!
skyy38
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Re: Seeking recommendations for books on Midi-Orchestration

Post by skyy38 »

cuttime wrote:My 2¢: Quantization is your enemy. Avoid using the same samples in duplicated instruments. I've also had good results with slight detuning, however I have had many a brickbat thrown my way for even suggesting such a thing. A slight vibrato is well within acceptable limits of detuning. A closer instrument is going to have more pre-delay than a rear instrument. You might want different sub-mixes from front to back.
Detuning can be good, in certain cases.

Try " A Man For All Seasons"....
skyy38
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Re: Seeking recommendations for books on Midi-Orchestration

Post by skyy38 »

Frodo wrote:
zuul-studios wrote:
Frodo -

I'm also a happy owner of Altiverb. I know that I don't use it to its fullest potential. I can see, though, how many instances of Altiverb can help create the "depth" of sound. I can also see how many instances of Altiverb can hugely tax the CPU! LOL! (Although the newer Altiverb 7 seems to be more CPU friendly than its predecessor. :) )

Cheers. . . :)

Ted
It is possible to use aux busses for different sections of the orchestra based upon their virtual placement in the mix. Doing this will help eliminate squandering resources by not putting one instance of Altiverb on every instrument track. One method some use is to submix winds, strings, percussion, and brass, and then to use four instances Altiverb on those submixes-- but only using the pre-delays to control the early reflections. Another instance of Altiverb *could* go on the master (or another aux) for the entire orchestra, but using only the reverb tail.

It's also important to note that large projects will tax the CPU. If you're on an Intel, the CPU can handle it, although you will definitely be putting it to work. As long as the CPU doesn't go into meltdown, you should be okay.

There are other ways of streamlining your workflow to make the most of your resources.

1. You've got 32GB of RAM. Run your most demanding VIs in standalone mode to make use of that RAM. Otherwise, all of your VIs and plugins will clog DP's current memory limit of less-than 4GB.

Also, it seems as if your machine will boot the 64-bit kernel. If you're VIs are 64-bit, then running them outside of DP could offer additional benefits where memory access is concerned. Another VI host such as Vienna Ensemble Pro or Bidule can also help keep things tidy.

2. This may not be necessary with your machine, but if your project involves real instruments or vocals, bounce those audio tracks to a single stereo track and just work with that until you're ready to do your final mix. It's not likely that you'll be tracking real instruments AND orchestrating at the same time. Streamlining your project can help save resources. When you're ready to mix, raise your audio buffers and fly in your separate audio tracks back in.

3. Any machine will get to a point of diminishing returns if overloaded. Some virtual orchestrators doing particularly large projects still find it necessary to offload some of their instruments onto a second machine. That's not to say that this is a must, but if you're doing something of the scope of "The Lord of the Rings" or "Star Wars", your projects may indeed tax a single machine.

4. Short of adding another computer, consider an eSATA stack of hard drives of some sort. I've got other instruments on my internal drives, but my larger orchestral and grand piano libraries are all on eSATAII drives. Streaming is better than, say, firewire, and CPU hits are lower. What helps here is that different instrumental groups are on their own drives, so seek times and transfer rates are vastly improved if the most demanding VIs are not being streamed from a single drive.

Just a few starter ideas. Any of this can be repurposed or reapplied according to one's personal workflow preferences.


Scroll down to "June/July 2007" for all the associated files.

EDIT-- it's just June/July, not June/July 2007. In fact, I'm having trouble with the mp3 link. Hmm.

I would highly suggest choosing one reverb setting and using it globally for the entire orchestra instead of trying to assign the "ideal" reverb for each instrument or even instrument groups.( YIKES what a TIME-eater!!!)

A reverb preset that sounds just fine on its own might not remain that way when combined with 3 other different presets, orchestrally speaking. This is the chief problem I have with movie soundtracks today-too much reverb in place of judicious mixing techniques.
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FMiguelez
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Re: Seeking recommendations for books on Midi-Orchestration

Post by FMiguelez »

skyy38 wrote: I would highly suggest choosing one reverb setting and using it globally for the entire orchestra instead of trying to assign the "ideal" reverb for each instrument or even instrument groups.( YIKES what a TIME-eater!!!)
I've found that using only one reverb to emulate an orchestra doesn't work too well. It tends to blur everything, and it won't give me the sensation of different depths.

How do you emulate the horn section, for instance, to sound further away than the first violins? Yes. You could use EQ and volume to give this impression, but a good placement with a good reverb set with a big room or hall sounds much more natural to my ears.

I actually like using 3 reverbs. One for each section (close, middle and far). I make the strings sound closer than the WWs or Brass, for instance (same room, but further away). And it's not so much about the tail part of the reverb as much as the early reflections that help give this impression the best.
skyy38 wrote:A reverb preset that sounds just fine on its own might not remain that way when combined with 3 other different presets, orchestrally speaking.
I think that is exactly the point. You don't want them to be the same in the first place (depending on taste, goals, blah, blah, blah).
skyy38 wrote:This is the chief problem I have with movie soundtracks today-too much reverb in place of judicious mixing techniques.
It may be that you think it's too much reverb, but not for the reasons you stated necessarily.
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"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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zuul-studios
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Re: Seeking recommendations for books on Midi-Orchestration

Post by zuul-studios »

skyy38 and FMiguelez-

I see that you've both posted some replies and shared some information to this thread that I started. Thank you! I apologize to getting back to you so late. I've been either working or, most recently, spending time with my family who are visiting us from various parts of the country during these past several days. The comments and information that you've shared are so very helpful. Actually, this thread is full of great information that a number of people have shared. For this I am sincerely grateful to you all!!! I really am!

A quick update. . . During the past month, I've purchased a few orchestration books that deal with MIDI and/or modern techniques in film composition. I've started reading them and between these books and the information that you all have shared (just on this one thread alone!), I feel "information rich"! I've already taken some of your suggestions and created a couple of orchestral templets to start with for future compositional/sequencing projects (all within DP7, of course). I've also started composing and sequencing another piece (that is part of a larger project) that I started LAST YEAR! (UGH! :oops: ) I hope to finish this larger project by the 2012 Holidays to give as presents to family and friends. Anyway, at least there's some forward momentum underway with regards to finishing this project.

skyy38 - you asked for an link to an MP3 file. The only recent one that I have to share is over 1 year old and was sequenced using another program other than DP7. It will give you a representation to where I was with orchestration & sequencing using "virtual instruments" a little over 1 year ago. Here's a link to the file. The piece is called "Winter in Mid-January". Of course, any suggestions to help improve the overall sound would be greatly received. I plan on re-sequencing this piece again (this time using either DP7 or DP8) using the suggestions provided me here and what's suggested in the books I've purchased. (Since completing this piece, I've already better panned the instruments in an attempt to better reflect proper orchestral seating.) Anyway, here's the link:

Winter in Mid-January

Again, thank you so much for sharing your talent and your expertise. It's all gold to me! :)

Ted
Computer:
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skyy38
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Re: Seeking recommendations for books on Midi-Orchestration

Post by skyy38 »

You're very welcome!

As long as you're loading up on "gold" here's another nugget!

http://www.songwritingplace.com/sitebui ... howard.pdf
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