Injury to Insult? SOS gaffs DP. New monthly REAPER column?

[James Steele]

Print is just a hard medium to be part of in the Internet age. Look at what is happening to newspapers around the country. If I'm in a coffee shop and there's one laying around I may peruse it but that's about it. A week or so ago I had a "paper boy" for the San Diego Union Tribune on my doorstep trying hard to sell me a subscription. Of course paperboy in 2010 means he was probably 28 years old. When I was kid, I delivered papers on my bicycle and paperboys were exactly that-- 12-15 year olds earning extra money. I spent mine on model airplane kits. Any way, I explained to the guy that I really get my news from TV, radio and then my own research on the web. From his reaction, I could tell he was hearing that a lot.

Funny thing though. If the newspapers were smart they would go back to using kids on bicycles. Had it been a 12 year old boy on my porch, I might have bought the subscription because he reminded me of myself at his age and I admire young people who are out learning about the traditional connection between work and getting something you want by earning it. I imagine a few of my subscribers were helping out a hard-working kid more than really needing the daily paper.

[Shooshie]

Haven't you heard? 28 is the new 12!



Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

Print is just a hard medium to be part of in the Internet age. Look at what is happening to newspapers around the country. If I'm in a coffee shop and there's one laying around I may peruse it but that's about it. A week or so ago I had a "paper boy" for the San Diego Union Tribune on my doorstep trying hard to sell me a subscription. Of course paperboy in 2010 means he was probably 28 years old. When I was kid, I delivered papers on my bicycle and paperboys were exactly that-- 12-15 year olds earning extra money. I spent mine on model airplane kits. Any way, I explained to the guy that I really get my news from TV, radio and then my own research on the web. From his reaction, I could tell he was hearing that a lot.

Funny thing though. If the newspapers were smart they would go back to using kids on bicycles. Had it been a 12 year old boy on my porch, I might have bought the subscription because he reminded me of myself at his age and I admire young people who are out learning about the traditional connection between work and getting something you want by earning it. I imagine a few of my subscribers were helping out a hard-working kid more than really needing the daily paper.

There are too many effing lawyers my friend. If a kid on a bicycle got hurt nowadays, the newspaper would get sued.

It is indeed a different age

[sstillwell]

Knowledge is power. If more people know about Reaper, more popular this DAW will be. I think that Reaper have a good marketing strategy.

Well, yeah... they're essentially "giving away" their software. For every user that actually pays for Reaper (and how many are paying $60 when they should be paying $225?) how many install it on their machines and go about there way and NEVER pay for it? And those guys though WILL buy copies of SOS, and they will reply to polls.

If this is the market reality, then it's not surprising SOS does this. They don't really care if the people buying their magazine haven't paid for their DAW software. It's not their concern. They just know there's a lot of people using Reaper, because Reaper uses the honor system... which probably means for every 1 paid user there are at least ten or more unpaid users.

James,

People DO pay for REAPER. I am the proud owner of Commercial license #2 of REAPER...bought it the moment that I was told that the software was sufficiently stable that Justin would start selling licenses for it. I would have been #1 if I hadn't been beaten to the punch (or click) by another user. I use it because I started out on Vegas, and the workflow in Reaper is VERY Vegas-like...it's what Vegas COULD have been had Sony been of a mind to actually listen to their audio userbase.

I also own Digital Performer and have bought upgrades for years...even though the Mac hardware I own is pretty underpowered to do much of what it's capable of (first install was on a 'Sawtooth' G4 (AGP graphics) with a single 400Mhz processor...bleh).

I bought both products long before I ever started developing plugins...I was just thumping bass guitar and recording stuff because I loved it.

Do people treat REAPER as free? Some do, yes. Possibly even many people. People also steal MY software because the eval downloads don't have technical limitations. People also CRACK my software even though it doesn't have technical limitations...they just don't want to see the nag screen...go figure. People steal cable TV service, cars, and $0.05 pieces of bubblegum, too. People will steal if they are inclined to steal, period. There is no "sticking it to the man" involved, it's just theft. Their loss. You can call it karma or "paybacks are a b*tch", but it'll come back to them somehow, I believe.

I think a lot more of SOS' publishing of a REAPER column has to do with its rapidly-growing user base, its low point of entry for system requirements, cross-platform availability, performance, and above all, the speed and responsiveness of the development team. (DISCLOSURE: Schwa, one of my partners in crime at Stillwell Audio, is also one of the developers of REAPER, but actually started developing plugins with me (and gave me more assistance than I can ever repay) prior to joining Cockos). One of their contributors, Mike Senior, has already been doing a "Mix Rescue" column in SOS for quite some time, using REAPER and commonly-available plugins, simply to show people how it's done, and to make it easier for the readers to duplicate it for themselves and break it down to see how it all comes together.

Anyway...DP is a fantastic product, and I don't see ANY end in sight for continuing to work with it where it fits my needs and continuing to make my plugins remain compatible with it...but I also will continue to use REAPER where IT fits (which is wherever I have a PC rather than a Mac running), and making my plugins compatible with IT too...

Y'know...I'm not sure I actually even have a point, here, other than I don't think that REAPER or SOS particularly deserves a boot in the head over SOS' publishing of a new column.

My $0.02 worth...

Scott Stillwell
Stillwell Audio

[James Steele]

Scott-- you know I have great respect for you. My issue with Reaper is primarily the manner in which they are building that user base. The app has absolutely NO copy protection and can be downloaded freely. Of course you or I would purchase licenses, but a good many people don't. If there's one Reaper pirate for every paid DP user, well then, no wonder there might be a larger user base as far as SOS is concerned.

It is my feeling that Cockos is prioritizing building a user base and that their business model is to undercut established players and takes into account that many won't pay and they're okay with that. Building user base-- no matter what-- is working for them and it's reflected in the pages of SOS. I will say that subscriptions from pirates raise bank balances just as much as subscriptions from paid users. And as someone who uses Reaper and speaks highly of it... is it a $60 DAW or is it undercutting the market price to build share? (Leaving out the numerous free copies).

The day SOS drops Performer Notes entirely is the day I will cancel my subscription.

[sstillwell]

Would it be better to price it higher, lock it up, and just have people steal it because they can't afford it? People pirate software because they CAN, not because it's expensive or inexpensive. I'm not sure I see your logic here. Selling something for less than somebody else does to attract business is pretty basic business procedure...supply and demand, anyone? I really don't think that's their basic premise to begin with, but even if it were, there is nothing inherently "evil" or "wrong" about it.

I have nothing but respect for you as well, James, but I think we may have to agree to disagree about our PERCEPTIONS of Cockos' (not Cuckos, please...it's not MUTO, is it?) motives since neither of us can actually speak "from the inside".

I'll bow out, now...I think that pretty much all that I can say of substance has been said, anything further would just be rephrasing something already said.

No harshness, no anger, just done talking for the moment.

Scott

[James Steele]

Hey Scott. Nothing personal here at all. You know I have always spoken highly of you and your company's products on this forum. In fact, YOU are the developer that started me thinking of creating a special MOTUNATION developer endorsement (and graphic to use) for your willingness to go out of your way to support DP and by extension DP users. Not to mention everyone here knows how outstanding your plugs are.

We just have a little difference of opinion is all. When you say people pirate software because they CAN, nothing is EASIER to pirate than an app or plug that has NO copy protection. Can copy protection be cicumvented? Of course. But perhaps I can use a car analogy.

I can park my car (DP) in a parking lot, lock the doors, roll up the windows and put a "club" on my steering wheel. Does that mean it can't be stolen by someone who is determined? Of course not. But if someone pulls up and parks his car (Reaper) next to mine, leaves the windows down, motor running with the keys in the ignition, which car is more likely to be stolen?

For the sake of discussion, let's say for now DP is a BMW and Reaper is a very nice Toyota (Lexus hasn't been created yet). A thief who is itching to drive the BMW may spend the time and extra effort to break into it and leave the Toyota idling. However, a thief who hasn't built up any sort of brand preference and doesn't care is going to steal... and start driving the Toyota. After a while sales for things like floormats for Toyotas will be on the rise, whereas floormat sales for BMWs will decline. The guy who manufactures floormats doesn't know if all the orders coming in for Toyota floormats are from people who bought their Toyota or stole it. All he knows is they're outpacing demand for BMW floormats, so he's got no choice but to shift production to crank out Toyota floormats. All he knows or cares about is "there are all these Toyota drivers out there."

Am I trying to assign bad intent to the Cockos people (I did not intentionally mispell the name-- sorry). But it's obvious to me that if you're trying to make a go of it in a market as mature as the DAW market, you're going to have to gain market share by aggressive pricing. If you're a small outfit you can afford to do this-- for a while. So, since Cockos is pursuing building a user base by taking market share from established players like DP by using aggressive pricing as well as leaving their DAW parked in my neighborhood with the keys in the ignition, I simply decided not to help one Reaper user (whether or not he's legit) when he showed up wanting a couple of gallons of "BMW Metallic Silver" to paint his (very nice) Toyota with. Chalk it up to DAW rivalry. In the end, he got his "paint" anyway and even if he doesn't want to pay $400 to competitively upgrade to my BMW he can still paint his car the same color and soon all his friends can. I just wasn't going to be the guy to give him the paint.

[stickwolf]

I am shocked at the level of cynicism and prejudice going on here. Put simply, you people are almost certainly wrong and definitely just spouting out claims without evidence! I'm not going to do that, I'm going to support my claims, read on:

Here's the deal:
Cockos has a great marketing strategy involving allowing everyone to fully try the software for free. Because of some unreasonable resentment of this by people here, you refuse to follow up on it, believing it to be some sort of underhanded scheme. Therefore, you fail to realize all the very great things about REAPER. I was hesitant myself simply because of the time of getting into some new thing I might not use. But I eventually tried it and was extremely impressed. REAPER can take any item from a plugin and create a dedicated knob with full MIDI-learn and put it in the overall track list, creating easy access to whatever you want to most adjust. REAPER can search through plugins and actions by typing, making it much easier to get what I want quickly. All sorts of actions are easily programmable to get it to do what I want. Setting up routing of my microtonal MIDI keyboard to send keyboard output channels to input channels of a plugin was fast and easy, much better than DP. Quick access to playback speed is nice. Updates are very frequent. There's lots more great about REAPER too, it is definitely definitely certainly definitely NOT a Garageband-like beggining DAW, it is a serious professionally capable DAW. There are so many things that are preferable to DP, so I went and purchased a license. There's still things I prefer about DP, but now it is just a question of no perfect program, they each have pros and cons.
As to amateurs, well yeah, that's a good thing though. I like that REAPER is enabling more people to get into this. How is it wrong for a guitar student of mine to download some software if they aren't sure they'll even use it and then pay $60 to use it a 1/20 of the amount that one of us would. I can't tell such a person to buy DP. They could use Audacity but REAPER is better. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Cockos offering their product to such people.

But as to the whole piracy issue... you people have it BACKWARDS. Piracy is encouraged by copy-protection. You know that. Pirates revel in breaking the protection. It is because they don't respect the company. I absolutely guarantee to you that MORE people pay for REAPER than for copy-protected software. The reason is that people do have some ethics and human beings are a lot less comfortable breaking an honor system than breaking what they see as an annoying copy-protection scheme.

This is totally supported by psychological research. There are tons of socially-reinforced, ethical things in society that are broken when we put money and penalties into them. The famous study was with daycare places where parents were picking up kids late. When a financial penalty was introduced, parents came LATER, it got WORSE. See when there was no penalty, the parents weren't perfect but kinda knew they were being jerks and felt bad. When it was a financial penalty, they just said, well that's the penalty and they stopped caring. Check out the reference to it in this excellent presentation:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/clay_ ... world.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So the truth is: many of the same people who pirate DP actually pay for REAPER, and it isn't just the price. By using REAPER without paying they feel like assholes taking advantage of Cockos' good will. By pirating DP they feel like they defeated some asshole company that doesn't care about them. I'm not saying this is fully justified, it's just human psychology. Cockos agreement feels very two-directional, with both sides having ethical responsibility. MOTU is somewhat that way, but more one-directional.

I don't have the stats, but all the evidence is that honor systems actually produce better behavior. The cynics who don't believe it are almost always people living in worlds where the honor systems are long broken so they don't appreciate them. Once honor is broken it is very hard to fix even if you get rid of whatever broke it.

Of course there are some REAPER users who never paid for it. But of the users who are really active enough with it to read magazines and such... I bet the percentage who actually pay is within the same or maybe even better range than with copy-protected programs. None of you have evidence otherwise, and my guess is in line with what we know about human psychology.

At the very least you have NO reason to claim that Cockos made their policy with some scheming, underhanded intent. Everything about their policy is honorable and upstanding.

[FMiguelez]

So the truth is: many of the same people who pirate DP actually pay for REAPER, and it isn't just the price. By using REAPER without paying they feel like assholes taking advantage of Cockos' good will. By pirating DP they feel like they defeated some asshole company that doesn't care about them.

Do you REALLY believe that? Did you make a poll, or something?
I could say similar things about anything else.

But as to the whole piracy issue... you people have it BACKWARDS. Piracy is encouraged by copy-protection. You know that. Pirates revel in breaking the protection. It is because they don't respect the company. I absolutely guarantee to you that MORE people pay for REAPER than for copy-protected software. The reason is that people do have some ethics and human beings are a lot less comfortable breaking an honor system than breaking what they see as an annoying copy-protection scheme.

There you go....

You know, I was writing a long response to what you just wrote. But what's the point? I deleted it because it made me feel pretty stupid trying to talk to some guy I don't even know about something he will NOT change his mind, and I won't change mine.

If you really believe all that piracy non-sense you just wrote, then there's no point in wasting my time arguing with you or trying to convince you otherwise.
You believe your point as strongly (well, almost as strongly) as I believe in MY piracy points.
I may seem as stupid to you as you seem to me. But that's all right.
This has been debated to death all over the place, and it's not getting any better.

So let's just NOT forbid or punish piracy. We don't want to make kids start pirating because we told them they shouldn't do it...

All I know is that piracy is growing at alarming rates. Doing something about it hasn't worked. Not doing anything about it hasn't worked either (we see this every day). The point is that nothing is working and in the meantime piracy is growing to levels that can't be stopped.

The way things are going, thanks to the parasites and rats that steal and pirate music and software, I really don't think future generations will be able to make a living doing music.

You think we have it backwards? No. YOU have it backwards.

Thank you, pirate rats!

[stickwolf]

Sorry you weren't more open-minded. I'm not claiming to know everything.

Look, it's a matter of understanding human psychology. People are not completely ethical or unethical. "Pirates" are almost entirely NOT sociopaths. Neither are they completely upstanding perfect citizens. People are complex.
The fact is that with these complex people, evidence is VERY strong that many MORE folks will do the right thing when they are asked to as a matter of integrity and morality than when they are asked to do the right thing to avoid punishment or to get reward. There is a widespread but definitely false cultural idea that people will behave best when you use carrot/stick approaches. I guess you didn't watch the video I linked to. People behave best when a social norm indicates an honorable way to be. Once the carrot/stick approach is used many people lose care for honest integrity for its own value. In other words, people start off by caring about being good ethical people, but if you introduce extra reward/punishment then that becomes the focus and they lose sight of the value of ethics intrinsically.

I'm not some bullheaded ideologue. I'm discussing what is shown from scientific evidence. And I'm open to changing my understanding with new information or perspectives. Everyone here seems to be just ranting about their prejudices instead of facing the complex facts of human behavior.

[FMiguelez]

.

Yeah, humans are complex.
It's NOT that I'm not open minded. Remember, I could say the same about you and I would be equally right...

So yes, humans are complex. And that's why they (we) need an iron fist sometimes. Modern society and rich countries tend to be too "understanding", too worried about being "politically correct", etc., when in reality, there's nothing that can't be done or changed by being strict, disciplined, and with an IRON fist. Or a Steele fist

Severe measures must be taken when facing severe problems. Piracy would be stopped dead if consequences for thieves were serious, swift and constant.

This is one of the reasons that I ALWAYS say that the ONLY way things can change in Mexico, for instance, is by getting elected a DICTATOR with an iron fist to restore law and order here.
I would be more than willing to give up certain rights as long as law would be restored and enforced.
I'm just tired of living in the jungle where anything goes and one is allowed to do anything to survive even if that means stepping into other's toes. I'm tired of seeing criminals acting freely with zero consequences.

It's time to stop pampering and being "so understanding" to delinquents. Let's just put them in prison and throw the key away.

[James Steele]

Stickwolf-- I'm not some bullheaded ideologue. Not saying you're accusing ME of that, but I'd like to state that right now.

Fact is you cannot prove your assertions at all. You cannot prove any numbers as far as how many are pirating DP versus how many are pirating Reaper. So it's all simply conjecture.

FWIW, I simply disagree with many of your premises and I do not buy into the argument that copy protection is to blame for creating pirates any more than the idea that laws against murder are to blame for creating murderers.

I think your notion that people won't rip off Cockos because they're somehow touched by the gesture of the honor system is naive and wishful thinking. Perhaps instead of the "Grinch that Stole Christmas" you can have the "Pirate that Stole Software?" Maybe Cindy-lou "Cockos" Who's gesture of trust will cause the software thief grinch's heart to grow many sizes? I doubt it.

Even Cockos' trust has limits. From what I've heard, after 30 days, the user gets a nag screen that increases the time necessary to wait each time it is launched. I'm sure of course that there is no way of getting around that one?

You have your opinions and that's fine. I have mine. But to some extent you come off as an apologist for piracy and yet another person who seems predisposed to blame the developers who try to protect themselves for the problem of software piracy. It's an interesting spin. It's like blaming rape victims for walking late at night in a short skirt-- only you're blaming them for dressing modestly (copy protection) and not being "easy" (expensive), hence becoming a more alluring victim (target of piracy).

BTW, I have not trashed Reaper's feature set, etc. All I have bemoaned is regardless of the philosophy behind Reaper's pricing and lack of copy protection, and the sincerity behind it, it is also an aggressive means to build market share.

Any way, since none of us can produce any real numbers as far as ratio of pirates to paid users for Reaper versus DP, it's hard to debate in the absence of hard numbers. Only Cockos might have a clue as they might know the number of unique IP addresses that have downloaded Reaper versus the number of licenses they've sold. Granted that information would not be too useful considering some people just might decide it's not what they want-- even for $60. But it might still be enlightening.

[FMiguelez]

FWIW, I simply disagree with many of your premises and I do not buy into the argument that copy protection is to blame for creating pirates any more than the idea that laws against murder are to blame for creating murderers.

Ha! You took those words out of my mouth! I totally agree with you here.
That statement is so absurd that it is not even wrong...

[stickwolf]

Fact is you cannot prove your assertions at all. You cannot prove any numbers as far as how many are pirating DP versus how many are pirating Reaper. So it's all simply conjecture.

You're right, and I didn't claim to know the numbers. I did speculate, and said it was speculation.

FWIW, I simply disagree with many of your premises and I do not buy into the argument that copy protection is to blame for creating pirates any more than the idea that laws against murder are to blame for creating murderers.

It would be unfair to actually blame copy protection for creating pirates, you're right! But not being the cause doesn't mean it is the solution. Copy protection has mixed results (as you know) at curbing piracy, just as laws have mixed results at changing behavior. For murder, laws are needed to handle psychopaths and otherwise are just (as in justice) in general, but the main reason people don't murder is NOT for legal reasons! I assume you would NOT say that YOU would go out and murder people if we eliminated murder laws, right?!? You don't murder people because you know it is wrong, not because of the punishment.

I think your notion that people won't rip off Cockos because they're somehow touched by the gesture of the honor system is naive and wishful thinking. Perhaps instead of the "Grinch that Stole Christmas" you can have the "Pirate that Stole Software?" Maybe Cindy-lou "Cockos" Who's gesture of trust will cause the software thief grinch's heart to grow many sizes? I doubt it.

You're just obviously unaware of the massive evidence of psychological research. You can read more about that study I mentioned and watch the presentation, but it is only one of a large number of studies in this area. My claims are not wishful thinking. My claims about this "gesture of trust" are supported extremely highly (though definitely not 100% proven, I'll admit) by all available empirical evidence that I know of. Your view is cynical and actually out of touch with what is likely. We both, of course, have to agree that we don't have the Cockos data to actually test these things. However, my view is supported by the data we do have on similar behavioral studies.

Even Cockos' trust has limits. From what I've heard, after 30 days, the user gets a nag screen that increases the time necessary to wait each time it is launched. I'm sure of course that there is no way of getting around that one?

I wouldn't know, because I paid for it.

You have your opinions and that's fine. I have mine. But to some extent you come off as an apologist for piracy and yet another person who seems predisposed to blame the developers who try to protect themselves for the problem of software piracy. It's an interesting spin. It's like blaming rape victims for walking late at night in a short skirt-- only you're blaming them for dressing modestly (copy protection) and not being "easy" (expensive), hence becoming a more alluring victim (target of piracy).

I don't mean to be an apologist in the way you see it. I think that if someone grows up in a crime-ridden gang area with bad education and becomes a criminal you can totally still blame the guy for his actions. If he kills or steals, he still deserves to be brought to justice, period. At the same time we can also talk about how his upbringing failed to help him learn to be responsible. If the system fails to teach someone to be ethical, I don't think we should then pretend that he is ethical anyway! We can still say that the system needs improvement.
I think developers using copy-protection have mostly good intentions. I don't think they should really be blamed. But people who fined parents for picking up kids late also had good intentions and they just failed to be successful, actually hurt the situation. There's no sense in insisting on doing things that are shown to fail.

BTW, I have not trashed Reaper's feature set, etc. All I have bemoaned is regardless of the philosophy behind Reaper's pricing and lack of copy protection, and the sincerity behind it, it is also an aggressive means to build market share.

Someone compared REAPER to GarageBand. I don't remember who. It's not a fair comparison. REAPER's features are closer to DP than to GarageBand. Of course everything has its pros and cons.

Any way, since none of us can produce any real numbers as far as ratio of pirates to paid users for Reaper versus DP, it's hard to debate in the absence of hard numbers. Only Cockos might have a clue as they might know the number of unique IP addresses that have downloaded Reaper versus the number of licenses they've sold. Granted that information would not be too useful considering some people just might decide it's not what they want-- even for $60. But it might still be enlightening.

Yeah, I agree completely. And I appreciate that you realize that such data would still be challenging to interpret.

Peace,
Aaron

[James Steele]

I think your notion that people won't rip off Cockos because they're somehow touched by the gesture of the honor system is naive and wishful thinking. Perhaps instead of the "Grinch that Stole Christmas" you can have the "Pirate that Stole Software?" Maybe Cindy-lou "Cockos" Who's gesture of trust will cause the software thief grinch's heart to grow many sizes? I doubt it.

You're just obviously unaware of the massive evidence of psychological research. You can read more about that study I mentioned and watch the presentation, but it is only one of a large number of studies in this area. My claims are not wishful thinking. My claims about this "gesture of trust" are supported extremely highly (though definitely not 100% proven, I'll admit) by all available empirical evidence that I know of. Your view is cynical and actually out of touch with what is likely. We both, of course, have to agree that we don't have the Cockos data to actually test these things. However, my view is supported by the data we do have on similar behavioral studies.

You're just obviously unaware of REALITY. You can call me cynical and "out of touch" but I think it is you who are "out of touch" and dangerously naive. Luckily, MOTU isn't run by someone who shares your thinking, otherwise we'd have no DP before long unless they wanted to maintain it as a loss leader for hardware sales.

Let's assume for one moment that all plug-ins and DAWs suddenly had NO copy protection. Do you think those companies would be able to stay in business for very long? Yes, you or I do don't pirate software, but I think we're grossly outnumbered. Your psychological studies may apply to theft of material items, but as we have all seen ad nauseum, the attitude toward stealing intellectual property (software, music, video) is vastly different and your "behavior studies" aren't worth spit in that context.