advice on analyzing my own songs

[bkshepard]

There have been many blind writers who couldn't read or write. Homer?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

There have been many blind writers who couldn't read or write. Homer?

Oh yeah. Who needs theory when you have booze! ha ha ha!

[bkshepard]

My point, exactly!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

My point, exactly!

Maybe we're taking this too seriously?

[Frodo]

From Homer to Wolfgang.

That pretty much covers it.

[FMiguelez]

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Hmmmm... sorry for responding so late, but I STILL don't have an internet connection at home


Reading MLC's responses made me notice my comment about the "blind writer" was somewhat off the mark... not really accurate.

I know Theory is not a pre-requisite for writing good music (or a good novel). Talent is/might be more important.

I guess what I'm REALLY trying to say is that, in a worst-case scenario, not knowing theory COULD hurt in terms of not being able to translate into music what one hears in his mind accurately, or to the full extent (for lack of knowledge of the how, etc.).
But, on the other hand, KNOWING theory could not possibly hurt at all. One can CHOOSE to ignore it or use it to one's benefit to express the ideas in the most clear or accurate fashion, and much faster.

But at the end of the day, the ONLY thing that matters is WHAT THE MUSIC sounds like. If it was created while being up-side-down, drunk, or whatever, that's fine.
It's just that I have a couple of friends who are VERY talented, but they can not fully exploit their talent and ideas because they invariably get "stuck" with certain "basic" things, or it takes them for ever to figure out.
When I show them what they "really" are trying to do, they love it, they learn it, and they write faster and better. One of them realized this and is already taking music lessons at a local school, and his stuff keeps getting better and better. Not necessarily because of the theory per-se, but because of all the new doors and ground for smart and guided experimentation that he's starting to discover.

FWIW, I LOVE being challenged... especially by a smart person as MLC. And I know he'd challenge me (or anyone else) even if I didn't like it anyway

Cheers!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I'm getting good at not hitting the edit button - no?

Of course we are in agreement, FMG! Personally, I'm a big fan of knowledge in general and in musical knowledge in particular. Can never seem to get enough of it and I just love to forget it all when I'm composing and improvising.

[Frodo]

.


I know Theory is not a pre-requisite for writing good music (or a good novel). Talent is/might be more important.

I guess what I'm REALLY trying to say is that, in a worst-case scenario, not knowing theory COULD hurt in terms of not being able to translate into music what one hears in his mind accurately, or to the full extent (for lack of knowledge of the how, etc.).

But, on the other hand, KNOWING theory could not possibly hurt at all.

I think the important fork in the road is a matter of "fluency". That's the process where everything you learn comes together in a stream of consciousness when you're not thinking about every little detail-- where understanding is implicit and where creativity is liberated.

But learning music theory *today* will not help you meet a deadline by 5 pm *tomorrow* or by next Wednesday or by the middle of August. Consider how long it takes to really learn the lyrics to a song very well even when one considers themselves fluent in their native language (let alone a foreign language). It's not a fast process, is it? There's always a sheet of paper involved with scribbles all over it.

It's one thing to "learn". It's a whole other thing to "assimilate". In this case, time can be the enemy.

But if one is serious about it, then it's worth it to take and make the time for it-- imho.

Fluency = the state in which what you learn, what you want, and what you feel align themselves with each other.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I wish I knew you guys about 40 years ago. I suspect I got some similar advice then but probably didn't have the ears to listen...

Thanks to those who contribted. There is still so much to learn.

[twistedtom]

MLC that is the wounder of it; you always learn. I know you and Frodo have so much more knowledge in music structure and theory than I ever will yet you are still learning.
Knowing what tools to use and how to build a house plus the talent to use the tools will produce a lot better house than blindly nailing boards together.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

MLC that is the wounder of it; you always learn. I know you and Frodo have so much more knowledge in music structure and theory than I ever will yet you are still learning.
Knowing what tools to use and how to build a house plus the talent to use the tools will produce a lot better house than blindly nailing boards together.

Not so sure of that Tom. There aren't that many rules to learn really. Glenn Gould said you could learn everything there is to know about piano playing in an hour (maybe he said 30 minutes). That is very true. Scales, finger crossings, arpeggios, the basics of good reading, expression marking, pedals, etc. Yet it takes a lifetime for most to get command of the info. That's one of the things about Mozart that many find amazing. He grasped it and commanded it pretty much all at once.

Perhaps the greatest "mystery" in art and probably in life is how simple it really is. You breathe, eat, eliminate waste, sleep, and dream. Carrying that into music:

Breathe - play music because you love to - or simply have to!

Eat - Gain knowledge. Read scores. Watch other players. Watch nature and the world around you. Listen. Above all, listen.

Eliminate Waste - This is where theory comes in handy. Brahms said the notes he puts in his works are not as important as the notes he leaves out.

Sleep - Get away from it. Do something else. If you play rock, try jazz or tribal music. Classical player? Try rock, or jazz, etc. Just don't play at all.

Dream - Compose. Arrange. Improvise. Turn Mozart on his head.

To quote Madge: You're soaking in it now!

If you don't get that, ask Frodo.

[Frodo]

To quote Madge: You're soaking in it now!

If you don't get that, ask Frodo.

"More than just mild."

You know, some of this reminds me of how I got into things like Photoshop or 3D graphics. I did better at Photoshop than CGI or animation, but I never studied graphic design or photography in a serious way. Had I done that I would be much better at it. Thankfully, paying the bills doesn't require that I learn this stuff.

Further, once DAWs entered the picture, it was very clear that I didn't spend enough time getting into the details of mixing and mastering while working in studios "back in the day". For a few songs and a couple of dances, we can have a motherload of plugins-- SSL, Neve, UA, TC, Lexicon, etc. Hardware versions of these just weren't accessible to figure them all out. With that kind of high-end gear, I was never the engineer.

So, I pick up a Duende and an UAD-1. Suddenly, I'm "soaking" in a sea of trial and error. Over time the results became acceptable only because I had a sonic concept in my head... and asked a lot of questions! But there are things I really want to learn more thoroughly, such as when and why to use a Neve 1073 rather than the 1081.

In that light, it's nice to know why a raised 9th chord might work better than a 13th in a particular chord progression (or the other way around). The effect of each can be similar, but I've also seen people use one for the effect when using the other might have been more effective-- simply because they didn't have a full grasp of the chord library and all its options.

Indeed-- the learning never stops.

[bkshepard]

Indeed-- the learning never stops.

Thankfully!

[Frodo]

Indeed-- the learning never stops.

Thankfully!

OMG-- yes.

All too often people forget that *starting* the learning process is a Pandora's Box that has no end. There is no such thing as mastery because one can spend the rest of their life "mastering" anything.

But isn't that the beauty of it all?

[bkshepard]

I always wonder how many people really get it that "Commencement" refers to a beginning and not to an end. The three Ls--Life-Long-Learning.