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Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory and the art of creating music in all forms from orchestral film scores to pop/rock.
Frodo wrote: How do you deal with the others without making them uncomfortable or putting them on the defensive regarding their reading skills?
You have a point. Although for those kind of players do you even write a chart, apart from putting some chords on paper? I guess I'm just sensitive because of the sometimes perceived bias against musical literacy and intricacy in the commercial music world these days.
You're right-- there is a lot of bias out there-- and it gets ugly sometimes. But embracing good musicians for their musicianship first has been a priority for me for ages. That's why I find this discussion so healthy: the idealism of copyists or arrangers or orchestrators who participate only from a distance can sometimes overlook the needs of a particular situation where musicians are always expected to meet one set of criteria and are often criticized for failing to do so. I've seen too many amazing musicians get sent out the door because their musicianship was not valued first. That's not how I like to work (wherever the decision was even mine to make...)
This goes back to what I said earlier: the more you know about the people you work with, the easier it is to prepare for them-- whether that means a simple chord chart or a note-driven chart full of info, or no chart at all.
In his book on scoring, Nelson Riddle recounted how he had become lazy about writing brass rhythms in his drum parts. But then at the session, he would see the drummer over talking to a trumpet player, copying the hits into his drum parts. So he began writing the brass cues in himself.
Seems to me that it can't hurt. If the drummer follows them, as a lot of good jazz and show drummers do, then great. If not, then whatever.
But it probably depends a lot on the genre you're writing in. Rock, country, pop--not so much. Jazz, show music, or symphonic pops--much more.
On the other hand, when I've played in show orchestras (guitar), sometimes I've snuck around to look at the other players parts, just to see how the big broadway orchestrators write. It occurs to me that the drum parts had no rhythm cues at all. Just a measure of basic kick and snare, followed by seven repeat measures. So go figure.
Nelson Riddle wrote a book on scoring? Boy would I like to read that. All I've ever read was a bio called "September In the Rain" with that great story about writing the chart to "I've Got You Under My Skin" in the car on the way to the date.
kinnylandrum wrote:Nelson Riddle wrote a book on scoring? Boy would I like to read that. All I've ever read was a bio called "September In the Rain" with that great story about writing the chart to "I've Got You Under My Skin" in the car on the way to the date.
Me too. In fact, I just ordered a copy on Amazon for about $20! But there are more!!!
Frodo wrote: How do you deal with the others without making them uncomfortable or putting them on the defensive regarding their reading skills?
You have a point. Although for those kind of players do you even write a chart, apart from putting some chords on paper? I guess I'm just sensitive because of the sometimes perceived bias against musical literacy and intricacy in the commercial music world these days.
Which brings us back full circle to Frodo's original post:
Frodo wrote:So, there's really no "one size fits all" solution. If you know for whom you're writing, it makes preparation so much easier.
So isn't the bottom line here that knowing the musicians for whom you are writing makes a difference in what you write?
And his original questions:
"Questions raised (among many):
1. Writing too much for a rhythm section
2. Writing too little for a rhythm section"
can only be answered "it depends!"
Phil
DP 11.34. 2020 M1 Mac Mini [9,1] (16 Gig RAM), Mac Pro 3GHz 8 core [6,1] (16 Gig RAM), OS 15.3/11.6.2, Lynx Aurora (n) 8tb, MOTU 8pre-es, MOTU M6, MOTU 828, Apogee Rosetta 800, UAD-2 Satellite, a truckload of outboard gear and plug-ins, and a partridge in a pear tree.
Phil O wrote:
So isn't the bottom line here that knowing the musicians for whom you are writing makes a difference in what you write?...
Phil
Or, in the case or writing for a pro group of killer readers (orchestra, A List Session players) it is making sure your charts are proofed to within an inch of their life!
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Or writing for a pro group of killer readers (orchestra, A List Session players) it is making sure your charts are proofed to within an inch of their life!
Oh, crimminey-- yes, lordie, indeed!!
Proofread and then proof the proofread.
For the original "Men In Black", we had four layers of proofreads and had to tick off each cue. No cue was delivered until it had four ticks from each proofer.
Come to think of it-- it's really a pain, isn't it?
Frodo wrote:
Come to think of it-- it's really a pain, isn't it?
Probably the single most important part of writing for those costly gigs. Rehearsals for orchestral performances (as you know) are scheduled down to the minute. There IS no time for "change that note" or "I think I have a problem in my score."
You can bitch, you can moan, but in the end, it is what is printed on the page that will be heard in the hall. In the end, there is nothing like it for a composer!
Frodo wrote:
Come to think of it-- it's really a pain, isn't it?
Probably the single most important part of writing for those costly gigs. Rehearsals for orchestral performances (as you know) are scheduled down to the minute. There IS no time for "change that note" or "I think I have a problem in my score."
You can bitch, you can moan, but in the end, it is what is printed on the page that will be heard in the hall. In the end, there is nothing like it for a composer!
Now we know the real reason why Pampers and Depend products were invented!!
Now, that's another topic for dicussion: the arrangers anxiety hearing their own wet, virgin ink for the first time!!
