Love the mouse or leave the mouse?

[JES]

Okay, not exactly. I've been mixing with a mouse since 1998 and am pretty used to it. (Most of my projects are in the 8-16 track range, FWIW). But I am intrigued by the crop hands-on control surfaces for DP like the Mackie and the SAC-2K. While I think I get good mouse mixes, it's true that it takes forever to set up a mix and I wonder whether this would be greatly improved by a control surface.

So I'd like to know if I switch to a control surface for DP, will I

1) Save a bunch of time and enjoy mixing a lot more; or
2) Waste tons of time in configuring it, use the mouse almost as much, and take as long to mix as I did before, but spend $1500 or whatever on something with a lot of flashing lights.

Also, which ones are the best integrated with DP right now? And how do they work with plugins and the like?

Thanks.

--JES

PS -- the only mixes I ever did on an old fashioned analog desk were on portastudios, so it's not I'm a pro who "misses" a big analog desk.

[studiodog]

Control surfaces are surely the way to go but I have to ask about the mouse.
Are you really using a mouse because a trackball ( I use the Kensington Orbit) beats a mouse any day of the week.

As for control surfaces I'm thinking about the Tascam US2400.
Seems like the best bang for the buck...

[bigdaddy]

Have to agree with Studio Dog. I was mixing using a trackball and ocasionally my controllers mod wheel (smoother than the t-ball). Then the wife got me a Behringer BCF2000 for X-mas and wow!!! I'm never, ever, ever going back to the t-ball/mod wheel again.

It's amazing how much quicker it is to use a real fader. I no longer end up having to fix my volume curves manually.

And for a mere $199.00 US... I'd love a SAK or Mackie, but this thing does plenty.

[JES]

Thanks for the replies so far. I'd love to hear more, especially with anyone who's got one of the pricier models.

As for the Behringer, Big Daddy, I'm glad to hear it's decent. Was it much trouble to set up?

Trackball, eh? I hadn't even thought about that.

Best,
--JES

[Siryne]

I have the Tascam US 2400 and I love it. I also have the Kensington Trackball and use it where I need that sort of thing. However, the us2400-very smooth faders-feels great-looks good-nice rotary encoders-very easy to set up and use. I am very impressed with this piece. Mixing has a feel to it. You need faders to get that feel (IMHO) and the 100mm long throw faders on the US 2400 feel great. Quiet too, no clunking around when snaping into place or playing your auto mix. I really do like this thing. Yeah... no scribble strips but for the price point and what you get. Yes Sir!
Peace!

[JuicyPeachMastering]

I use the Tascam FW-1884 with the FE-8 allowing for 16 tracks of faders. I love it. Although I do use the mouse alot I have been moving away from it using more of the assignable funtions on the Tascam. The pre's sound sweet and its nice to have a 'traditional' control surface to work on especially when mixing. Ofcourse there is no way to control plugin parameters... but that is the only functionality that is 'mouse' intensive.

[DARKMATTER]

Have been contemplating the same thing lately.

I read all about the MACKIE UNIVERSAL, but was a bit dissapointed when I checked it out in person.
For being so pricey, it felt rather cheesey to the touch. It wasn't hooked up or anything (gotta love Guitar Center), so really have no details on ease of use/integration, etc.

If anyone has more feedback on this or other units out there, it would help out.

<small>[ April 04, 2005, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: DARKMATTER ]</small>

[JES]

me too. I'm starting to be convinced that it would be great to get a control surface, but I now have no idea which is best.

The ideal would be 16 faders + meter bridge (or channel name readouts). It doesn't look like the Tascam has channel readouts or it would be the one.

Best,
--JES

[JuicyPeachMastering]

The Tascam is VERY rugged and 'feels' like a traditional board. As stated it does have the disadvantage of not having the 'channel name readouts' but for me it has the advantage of the built-in preamps and up to 18-channels at one time (using 8-ADAT and SPDIF). I use a dual monitor setup and place the mixing board layout on one screen.

[Jim]

FWIW, just to have an alternative viewpoint...

I prefer mouse mixing. I would like it better if MOTU would give us a decent Grabber tool, so we could jerk the timeline around (like you can do in FCP for example.) That would make it easier than finding the miniscule arrow buttons for scrolling.

I'd rather draw precise fader moves than record them by hand, then thin the data stream, then edit the data stream. I don't really appreciate any improvement in productivity.

My observation is that you can make art with whatever tools you have, and overcoming the limitations of your tools are part of defining you as an artist.

Having a big desk or control surface may convince clients you are a going concern. Some tend to be impressed by flashing lights. There may be good reasons to use them.

Personally, I'm trying to make my studio as small and lean as possible... that's the way of the future. Adding redundant hardware junk is a step in the wrong direction... for me... because my mixes tend not to have that much automation anyway.

.

[maintiger]

I had a mackie control for a couple of years and was largely unimpress by it- When I sold my old studio I did not bother to get one for the new studio. I hear the behringer is just as good for a fifth of the price. I have not checked out myself, though.

[willtompkins]

I agree with Jim, and I think that it's about making the most of what you got and being comfortable. Which completely validates mouse mixing. I know some guys up here in bigger studios that only mouse mix and have been doing it for 10 or more years!

Contrary though, I like having some sort of physical control with mixing as well. At least a few faders and knobs for some "musical" automation is nice. I recently puchased a Mackie control and love it. Besides Digi's consoles, I don't think there's another control surface that touches it. The scribble strip is very useful, the V-Pots feel great, and the faders have nice resolution (although a little noisy like somewhat like the Control 24). I really don't mind having to switch banks - it's a smaller footprint on my workspace! But I would love to add the C4 in the future.

With DAW's I think there will always have to be a middle ground between the mouse and console. Both work better in different situations. I mean, I'm not going to bank through 30+ tracks on the Mackie to assign I/O when it would take half the time to do it with a mouse. It really comes down to your workflow and productivity. A Shuttlepro, keyboard, mouse/trackball and small control surface and you're set!

-Will

[chrispick]

Originally posted by willtompkins:
I agree with Jim, and I think that it's about making the most of what you got and being comfortable. Which completely validates mouse mixing. I know some guys up here in bigger studios that only mouse mix and have been doing it for 10 or more years!

Contrary though, I like having some sort of physical control with mixing as well. At least a few faders and knobs for some "musical" automation is nice. I recently puchased a Mackie control and love it. Besides Digi's consoles, I don't think there's another control surface that touches it. The scribble strip is very useful, the V-Pots feel great, and the faders have nice resolution (although a little noisy like somewhat like the Control 24). I really don't mind having to switch banks - it's a smaller footprint on my workspace! But I would love to add the C4 in the future.

With DAW's I think there will always have to be a middle ground between the mouse and console. Both work better in different situations. I mean, I'm not going to bank through 30+ tracks on the Mackie to assign I/O when it would take half the time to do it with a mouse. It really comes down to your workflow and productivity. A Shuttlepro, keyboard, mouse/trackball and small control surface and you're set!

Well said. And pretty definitive. I second this opinion.

[williemyers]

I haven't "conttrol surfaced" yet, but I want to agree with the folks who reccomended switching from mouse to trackball. A big, fat (8ball-sized) trackball - like my (multilple) Kensington Expert Mouse PRO(s) - is a real blessing on the wrist, hand and fingers. It's dead accurate, takes almost no time to get use to, and - once familiar - you will never, ever, ever...ever... want to pick up a mouse again. I'm on my 18th year with trackballs.

[jimjacobsen]

OK, I'm with the trackball guys--vs. mouse--for sure. As for mixing with a trackball vs. control surface, I bought a SAC 2k, used it once and dumped it at a big $$$ loss. I find it so much easier and more precise to draw my volume, panning data onto the track. I've never been into entering quasi fader data with the trackball. TE-DI-OUS.