Weird-ass project corruption (rant)

[larrytheo]

This is not about a specific problem, it's just a commentary.

I sometimes do some complex projects in a single DP Project. I don't usually use huge numbers of tracks, but I often have a whole lot of Chunks (sometimes more than 100), lots of aux tracks, stuff like that. Nothing I think the program shouldn't be able to handle.

But what I have experienced is the DP Projects for these pieces often develop some pretty inexpllicable corruptions, frequently sidetracking me, either to a lengthy troubleshooting process, or a laborious workaround, like having to create a new project and use the Load command to load different Chunks until I can isolate the problem. It's painful.

One issue I have had several times recently is that DP stops being able to loop record. I can set it up and it will run fine...except that it only actually records the first pass. After that it's no longer in record. I had to create a new project just to be able to complete some loop recording I needed to do. Then I had to port the data back to the main project.

I also had one file for which Background Processing seemed unable to calculate a waveform and, by extension, find beats, but it was constantly trying, so that every time I tried to close the project it would inform me there was still background processing going on and did I want to quit anyway. This went on for more than a week. I finally opened the file in an external file editor, made an insignificant change (selected a second or so where there was no signal and made it silent, which it basically already was), then saved it, and when I reopened the project, DP was happy again. Yikes!

Most recently, there has been some really bizarre behavior in the Mix window Track Selector. One problem is that the Track Selector doesn't respond, so I cannot collapse or expand track folders in the Selector, and I can't show or hide tracks. Today was a new one, however. For the last few days I had noticed that some tracks that appeared in the Sequence window Track Selector (and in the Sequence window) simply did not show up in Mix window Track Selector (or, obviously, the Mix window itself). Troubleshooting today, I discovered that if the track name began with the letter "a" it would show up. If it started with any other letter or a number or symbol, it would not show up. I ended renaming a bunch of tracks by appending an "a" at the beginning of the track names. Really f'ing weird!!

It has become a fairly regular and VERY disruptive affair dealing with these weird bugs. Sometimes they occur only in specific sequences, other times it is every sequence in the project. I have no idea how these corruptions come about and I've tried all kinds of workarounds in different situations. It's really a problem for me, but once you're really deeply into a project, starting from scratch, or even porting everything to a new project, simply isn't viable. Feh!

[zounds]

I hear ya Larry. Being able to have multiple chunks in the same project is the feature that separates DP from other DAW’s. I do theatre sound scores in which each sound cue is a different chunk and DP is incredible for that (as are VR racks). Hundreds of cues in a stage play is not unusual, and they are often thematically related and derivatives of each other (for example, starting with a general theme and then using the duplicate chunk command to build the derivative cue).

But that feature is somewhat negated when you live in constant fear of your project getting corrupted. Loading chunks from a fully corrupted file into a new project is also not a viable solution if your project has thousands of soundbites organized in countless folders-the Load command does not load file folder organization in the Soundbites window (a request I’ve made in the past). My best defense is a strong backup plan which includes Time Machine, automatic saves, and daily duplication of the sound file, and then renaming and storing the renamed duplicate in a separate folder. And, of course, monthly backups to disconnected hard drives and DropBox for archiving. With luck, I can identify the corruption early and just have to reload the sequence I worked on before the corruption to a pre-corrupted file.

At any rate thanks for your comments and sharing useful info about some of the specific corruptions you’ve had. It’s good to hear about the experiences of others who work in similar fashion with DP.

Rick

[larrytheo]

Yeah, theater sound design is pretty intense nowadays. I've never done it myself, but I've spent time around guys doing serious Broadway and touring productions and it's totally cool how shows are handled now. I can totally see how DP's ability to store lots of sequences would be super-useful in your application.

I typically use them sometimes for in-process archiving of earlier versions, sometimes as sandboxes. The piece I'm working on now is 30 minutes long and has 16 pretty distinct sections and numerous different sound sources for each section (sound familiar?), so I have sandbox sequences, sequences of source material, sequences for the various sections, and then a master sequence whether it is all assembled.

When I first moved from working regularly in Pro Tools to working with DP seriously, I guess it was 30 years ago now (!!), I was doing sound for games and quickly picked up on the value of being able to store multiple sequences in one document, and that has become, as I just described, fundamental to my use of the program.

The issue with the corruption is not at all lack of backups. I have daily backups, but I also periodically create duplicates of the current document and keep them as a history I can access. The issue comes when enough work has been done since the last time a duplicate was created that going back to an older version before the corruption is not viable. If I'm really rolling when DP starts being goofy, I keep going unless it gets so bad I just have to stop and fix it, and that doesn't happen so often.

And sometimes it's a plugin thing and if you find the plugin, you fix the problem.

It's a fabulous feature, and more could be done with it, but DP development seems to be at a standstill, or, at least, there's only guy working on it part-time or something.

[James Steele]

….or, at least, there's only guy working on it part-time or something.

At least on that point, I can tell you that’s not the case.

[larrytheo]

Good to know, thanks. I think they make their money off hardware, so I could understand if there's not a big software team.

[FrankD]

Being able to have multiple chunks in the same project is the feature that separates DP from other DAW’s. I do theatre sound scores in which each sound cue is a different chunk and DP is incredible for that (as are VR racks). Hundreds of cues in a stage play is not unusual, and they are often thematically related and derivatives of each other (for example, starting with a general theme and then using the duplicate chunk command to build the derivative cue).

I like DP for that type of use. You can build your cues and leave them multitrack with effects, without rendering. During tech, requests for changes can be handled almost instantly. "I like it, but can there be a bit less metal?" "Shorten it by 1/2 second and add a spacey effect." and such... Unfortunately (for me) I mostly work with students and they have the idea that you can only use Qlab during a show. Even if they embraced DP, I would need to teach it to them. There isn't always time. I've managed to introduce some of them to Go Button, which is a small win.

I have not had the type of corruption you experience, but have had DP crash once or twice when using the Chunks window. Under "normal" use: recording, mixing and editing; DP is rock solid for me.

[larrytheo]

Thanks for the thoughts, FrankD. Since I have had this project corruption issue crop up in multiple projects over a number of years, I am curious how complex you would say your projects typically are. Lots of, well, anything? Tracks, VIs, Conductor track changes....

My experience with software in general is that quantity breaks it. When things get really big or really complex, bugs crawl out of the woodwork (essentially the scenario that produced the term "bugs" for software errors).

[Jim]

My experience with software in general is that quantity breaks it. When things get really big or really complex, bugs crawl out of the woodwork (essentially the scenario that produced the term "bugs" for software errors).

That was my experience with Adobe Premiere for several years. Large projects with many different media source codecs for audio and video would often lead to repeated crashing and project corruption. My observation was the most compressed codecs and corrupted media caused the most problems.

This led me to think Apple's model in FCPX of converting all imported media to ProRes / Quicktime had benefits. Before Avid went "native," it's NLE products required transcoding to OMFI on import. I assume that was the case for ProTools at the time as well.

A fix for corrupted media is to convert it to uncompressed, if it's not too corrupted. There's one Corrupt Clip Finder I'm aware of by Digital Rebellion. That's come in handy.

Working for long periods on projects and then having them cause major problems is certainly rant-worthy.