How "Off Pitch" Is "Off Pitch"?

[Siryne]

I am recording a female vocalist into DP 5.11 (Soprano with some lower singing too) for a Broadway musical score and there are many parts of her vocal that sound flat to me, or at least, not right on the pitch edge. Other non trained ears sy its sounds ••œLovely••

[Phil O]

To my ear, 30 cents flat is horrible. If she's that far off, you've got a problem. I think most people can hear it when its one or two cents off.

Phil

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Off pitch is off pitch, but as stated above, it is a judgement call. Most trained ears can hear it quickly and pro players can usually hear even the smallest deviation.

How much can you tolerate? Well, it depends on a few factors. Is the recording for a commercial release? If so, it should be as close to perfect as possible (IMO) but again, it may depend on style.

If it is a vanity recording or a demo reel, it really is up to the producer (usually the singer) to decide what is acceptable. If they cannot hear correct intonation, I would want to know that before i hire them and ••••ing with pitch correction to land a gig is not something I would recommend. 30 cents off is closer to an 1/8 note off (with 100 cents in a half tone). That is a lot, but not everyone will hear it (believe it or not). Just 3 or 4 cents off makes a piano sound out of tune.

Many singers "slide"up into a note and don't always hit is on the head (going sharp or flat). This is the trademark of an untrained singer. Not always bad if it works for the style you're working in, but to my ear, it sucks the big one.

Most 'legit' singers for B'way style (I assume you meant B'way style and NOT a cast recording of a B'way show) hit the notes on pitch and can hear when they are off. Certainly all classically trained pros are close to 100% accurate (but there are exceptions.)

I'd ask the client to listen and see if they can hear it. At some point, the performer MUST take responsibility for such matters. In my book, for a singer to be that far off is a career ender - but there may be factors that contributed to the problem. Bad monitoring thru headphones, an ear infection of damage, etc. Drugs & alcohol (nope, not kidding).

[Siryne]

Thanks for the reply's so far-I appreciate the help. To clarify, I am recording the score to a New Broadway MusicaL (I am the composer as well as producing the CD). It will be going to the ASCAP festival and about 40 prodution houses, festibvals and contests world wide.

[Frodo]

I'd say, if you think the pitch is off then don't hesitate to fix it. Nice thing about going digital: U-N-D-O!

At the end of the day YOU need to feel good about the product, and naturally, your hearing standards are higher it seems than others in your circle (and rightfully so!).

Ask yourself: "if I hear this six months from now, am I going to wrinkle my nose"?

[zaczac]

Ask yourself: "if I hear this six months from now, am I going to wrinkle my nose"?

Ha, yeah I couldn't agree more. I always try to employ the nose wrinkle test wherever possible.

[bralston]

Thanks for the reply's so far-I appreciate the help. To clarify, I am recording the score to a New Broadway MusicaL (I am the composer as well as producing the CD). It will be going to the ASCAP festival and about 40 prodution houses, festibvals and contests world wide.

For anything that is going to be immortalized forever on a CD, you HAVE to be a perfectionist about it. You just have to. It is ultimately your reputation as a producer of the album that will be reflected upon letting the CD out there.

[mpdan]

[quote="Siryne"]
Using Melodyne Plugin, it says tha many of these notes are between -30 and -46 cents flat. Am I correct that that is almost a quarter tone flat (at -50 cents).

I realize that this is a subjective question but am I being to clinical about this? How Flat is really ••œOFF PITCH••

[mpdan]

For anything that is going to be immortalized forever on a CD, you HAVE to be a perfectionist about it. You just have to. It is ultimately your reputation as a producer of the album that will be reflected upon letting the CD out there.

That's exactly right.

[cuttime]

This has touched a nerve. One reason I have a big problem with opera is the "Classically Trained Voice". There is so much extreme vibrato, so consistently, that it is almost impossible for the ear (or software) to discern what is the center pitch of a note within all the warbling. I don't believe anyone can analyze the center pitch of of a popular opera diva of the last 75 years. Hearing a Mozart aria with a run of sixteenth notes where each note may have a pitch deviation of more than a quarter-tone per sixty fourth is pure torture for me, but tell me: is this historic or stylistic? There are no recordings from Mozart's time. All we have is academic precedent. There are plenty of music teachers out there that will fail my exam.

[Siryne]

mpdan: If I change the pitch of something in ••œPeak••

[davedempsey]

Anything more than 3 cents is noticeable to anyone with ears.
How's this one: After relying on machines to tune my guitars for years I can tell when it's not absolutely perfect but can't acually hear well enough to tune it without the machine. I think that is a form of tuning addiction.
Miles said something like this about tuning: "There's no such thing as in tune, just two slightly out of tune notes."

[chrispick]

I'd forgo producing "perfection." I think you just have to go with what feels right. Trust your intuitive side.

In this case, given your query, I think that means the track's not right for you.

There's a good bit of subjectivity regarding acceptable pitch in singing, I think. In a lot of music, actually.

Case in point: I had a friend who would cringe everytime he heard Sade sing because she was always a touch flat. I always kind of liked it as it gave her vocal an added touch of melancholy or sleepiness to me.

But he thought I was crazy.

Then again, I like horns on those old Motown records because they're a bit sharp. Makes them feel a touch more urgent or anxious to me.

[Gibble]

.....Hearing a Mozart aria with a run of sixteenth notes where each note may have a pitch deviation of more than a quarter-tone per sixty fourth is pure torture for me, but tell me: is this historic or stylistic? There are no recordings from Mozart's time. All we have is academic precedent. .......

A very quick overview of vibrato.

1) Singing with vibrato is actually very healthy. Vibrato is the natural result of proper breath support (sub-glottic breath pressure), an open pharynx, and a healthy closure of the vocal cords.
2) Straight tone singing can be very unhealthy for the voice, continuous singing with straight tone can lead to the development of vocal nodules which can in turn lead to the destruction of a singing career.
3) Is it historical or stylistic? That is a very difficult question to answer, however the few texts on vocal production from the Renaissance era basically condemn vibrato. Vibrato became a stylistic point during the opening decades of the 1900's and has stayed with us from that point on.
4) Leopold Mozart condemned constant vibrato production in both string and vocal music but "....suggesting instead that vibrato should be used only on sustained notes and at the ends of phrases...."
5) As a vocal student and teacher myself I can state that vibrato develops naturally from correct singing techniques. Scientific exploration of the physiology of vocal production has resulted in an increased understanding of what is required to produce healthy singing.
6) The "Classically Trained Singer" that you alluded to near the beginning of your post will be able to sing their entire life due to having learnt proper vocal technique.

Hmmm, sorry, not quite so short.

Terra

[Frodo]

I'd forgo producing "perfection." I think you just have to go with what feels right. Trust your intuitive side.

I agree. The term "perfection" can have odd implications, although what is really meant by it may be unspoken and understood.

Personally, I'll settle for mere "excellence" any time.