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Hello

I'm new to DP (v.11.2) - using it on Windows 10. Unless I'm mistaken, its not possible to create Track level aliases/ghost tracks for Instrument(MIDI) tracks. If this is correct, I find it quite an omission. It's a feature found in most DAWs. I made prolific use of them way back in the 80's-90's using C-Lab's Notator on an Atari STe. They can certainly reduce a project's file size.
Perhaps there is some other workaround that I haven't yet discovered. Anyone have an opinion on this?

vapoureyes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 4:23 pm Track level aliases/ghost tracks for Instrument(MIDI) tracks

I can't figure out what that would be or what its purpose is. Can you give an example?

bayswater wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 4:28 pm

vapoureyes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 4:23 pm Track level aliases/ghost tracks for Instrument(MIDI) tracks

I can't figure out what that would be or what its purpose is. Can you give an example?

Aliases/Ghost tracks are simply virtual tracks that reference other tracks, but have their own parameter settings i.e delay, transpose, CC data etc. A typical use scenario would be to double up a bassline with some other instrument(s) without having to duplicate the track.

I’m not familiar with this feature. Is this something you can find in ProTools, Cubase, Logic, or other “mainstream” Mac DAW?

I suppose you could do some of that by creating an aux track and sending from the original instrument track and then applying audio effects plug-ins and or volume automation to the aux track. Not exactly what you want but could work in some cases.

Oh sorry… I didn’t see that this was in the Windows forum. Maybe there are lots of windows DAWs that have this feature?

James Steele wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 5:30 pm Oh sorry… I didn’t see that this was in the Windows forum. Maybe there are lots of windows DAWs that have this feature?

Studio One v.6(Windows) has the feature - its called Duplicate Shared. Cubase has it, though I can't remember what it's called. Logic Pro on a Mac has it - they are called Aliases. I think the first software that introduced it was C-Lab Notator - they were called Ghost tracks.

...it seems a request for MIDI track Aliases has been posted back in 2010 in this forum:
https://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43122

...one reasonably complex yet helpful response and one dismissive. I guess if you haven't actually worked with them, you probably wont know how useful they can potentially be.
It also really depends on the methods you use to compose and what are the crucial features that facilitate experimentation and the fostering of creativity.

Over on the Dorico forum, some were even dismissive of the need for a loop function! That's bread without the butter AFAIC.

I wasn’t trying to be dismissive. I wasn’t aware of a feature like that and it all depends on our workflows. We have different needs. It’s not something that I would use but obviously it’s something you like.

This is a user run forum, that have maintained as a labor of love for decades. It’s not run by MOTU so if you want a feature included in DP I guess it would be more useful to write to them. They used to have an email address for that, suggestions@motu.com.

Anyway congratulations on finding that thread. I guess what it boils down to, is that for some unknown reason MOTU has not seen fit to incorporate that feature. No way to know if anyone at MOTU even saw that post.

It’s not unusual for people to come to this forum and complain that Digital Performer doesn’t have a feature of other DAWs. Often they will announce they simply can’t use Digital Performer lacking that particular feature. It seems no DAW can be all things to all users. We all gotta go with the tools that fit our workflow today.

James Steele wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:23 pm I wasn’t trying to be dismissive. I wasn’t aware of a feature like that and it all depends on our workflows. We have different needs. It’s not something that I would use but obviously it’s something you like.

This is a user run forum, that have maintained as a labor of love for decades. It’s not run by MOTU so if you want a feature included in DP I guess it would be more useful to write to them. They used to have an email address for that, suggestions@motu.com.

Sorry James, that comment was not directed at you at all! It was in regards to an answer given to that post I linked to back in 2010.
And just in case I'm misunderstood. The loop feature I mention in the Dorico forum is not in relation to an individual track loop function, but a project loop function - there is quite a difference!

vapoureyes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:39 pmThe loop feature I mention in the Dorico forum is not in relation to an individual track loop function, but a project loop function - there is quite a difference!

You might look into DP Chunks/Songs in this regard; lots of interesting functionality there including the ability to repeat entire project segments.

With regard to Track Alias, I'm not sure I understand the functionality completely, but it strikes me that duplicate MIDI tracks referencing the same VI track/channel (as is very possible in DP)would grant the user similar advantages. A track that contains MIDI data only is of nominal size if a compact project is a desired goal.

DP also allows MDI destination s to be grouped, so a single MIDI Track can address multiple VIs.

I supposed an Alias would always reflect changes made in the source track and can see this being advantageous in some circumstances, and disadvantageous in others.

If you don't mind sharing some detail, I'd love to learn about how Track Alias is utilized.

HCMarkus wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:31 am it strikes me that duplicate MIDI tracks referencing the same VI track/channel (as is very possible in DP)would grant the user similar advantages.

I see what it is now, although I don’t remember using it in Cubase

Perhaps the difference between DP and other DAWs on this feature is that DP, until now has always had the MIDI and VI tracks as separate objects, while others have had a single object for MIDI playing a VI. That arrangement makes the idea of multiple outputs for a single MIDI track meaningless. (It also makes Logic very confusing in some arrangements.)

So perhaps the solution in some cases is to set the VI tracks in the traditional DP mode rather than the new format, although having the “aliases” use different control values would not work.

It’s also not that clear that alias MIDI tracks would save any significant CPU, possible none at all. Just running the aliases would take some CPU to generate multiple streams of the MIDI info, not necessarily any less than just duplicating the track.

bayswater wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:09 am Perhaps the difference between DP and other DAWs on this feature is that DP, until now has always had the MIDI and VI tracks as separate objects, while others have had a single object for MIDI playing a VI.

That's what I was thinking.

HCMarkus wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:31 am

vapoureyes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:39 pmThe loop feature I mention in the Dorico forum is not in relation to an individual track loop function, but a project loop function - there is quite a difference!

If you don't mind sharing some detail, I'd love to learn about how Track Alias is utilized.

Unfortunately there is no option to attach the pdf of the Notator User Manual that could explain in detail the uses of alias tracks (called ghost tracks). If you PM me I could email you a copy.

In its most basic form, the alias track is a virtual copy of the original including note, velocity and CC data. However a filter could be applied to exclude certain parameters from the original, with the option to apply different ones. Or simply to append those of the alias track.

As an example, these are the track parameters that could be applied to the alias (this is the C-Lab Notator implementation, but could be modified and extended considerably today):

1. MIDI port and channel (this is where you select the source output i.e sound module, VSTi etc.)
2. Groove (this is a playback humanize "swing" quantizing algorithm)
3. Transpose (incremental by semitones up and down)
4. Velocity (adds or subtracts to the source in increments of 1)
5. Compression (MIDI not audio - restricts velocities to certain ranges, as selectable ratios)
6. Loop (always begins from the first note in the measure and a parameter increment is of a quarter note value)
7. Delay (these are measured in ticks - so are fractional note lengths)
8. Lowest (this selects the playback range to all notes above a selected MIDI note with the track sequence)
9. Highest (this selects the playback range to all notes below a selected MIDI note with the track sequence)
10. Ghost of (this is where you initiate and select the track as the source for the Alias)

Once you select EDIT (then confirm) in the track parameter menu, the virtual parameters are applied and rendered out of their virtual status and are "hard written" into the track. This is called to "Normalize" a track.

Only by experimenting with the parameters can one fully grasp the potentially available. Many of the alterable parameters lend themselves well to syncopated rhythms and riffs, to add harmonic counterpoint etc.

Thanks for taking the time to review Alias Tracks, vapoureyes. I must say that it doesn't sound like anything that can't very quickly be accomplished in DP by duplicating a MIDI (data) Track and applying MIDI plugins, rendering MIDI FX, looping or editing.

It is important to keep in mind the point Baywater accented: In DP, VI and MIDI Tracks are not necessarily one and the same and, as such, it is a simple matter to have more than one MIDI Track address a single or multiple VIs simultaneously.

Until fairly recently, DP VI and MIDI Tracks were always separate; the VI Track would host the Virtual Instrument that was addressed by one or more separate and distinct MIDI Tracks. MOTU added the Combo VI/MIDI Track option a few iterations back, but it remains possible to have more than a single MIDI Track address a VI. (By grouping MIDI Devices, it is also possible to have any MIDI Track address multiple VI Tracks.)

So, by Duplicating a MIDI-only track, one is accomplishing essentially the same thing as the Alias Track.

When working with notation, I could see how an Alias might in some situations be preferred; when the Source Track is edited, changes would be reflected in the Alias Track. In DP this would be easy to overcome by dragging the Source MIDI data into the track (with desired MIDI Plugins enabled) being used as the source for notation.

Again, thanks for the info vapoureyes. Have a great one!