Amazing difference in D/A quality between brands and over a decade of upgrades

[mhschmieder]

I'm finally trying to slim down some of the duplication I incurred during my five months living and working in Durham NC while leaving most of my stuff here in Concord CA, while simultaneously trying to move away from rack gear for ergonomic reasons as well as flexibility.

I may find myself shuttling around a bit for different gigs (in every sense of that word), so I'm planning on buying a Sound Devices MixPre-10 and am thinking it can serve most of my needs and allow me to part with my True Precision TP8 mic pre-amp (transformerless) and maybe even my RME Fireface UFX. I've already sold my Audient ASP880 as I no longer need more than 12 channels at a time due to simplifying my drum recording setup.

In comparing the RME to the SSL 2+ just now -- on professional classical music (especially solo piano) vs. my own stuff as I figure that's a better test -- it seemed to me that the RME has more detail and heft as well as natural balance, but the SSL is quite impressive and far better than Focusrite or PreSonus units I have used in the lower price range. It's much newer (by over 8 years?) so I thought maybe it would have better converters than the UFX.

The thing I love about the SSL 2+ is the big knob, as so often I get a sudden blast and it takes eons to either turn off both monitors, try to get the mouse to focus on RME Total Mix so I can mute and/or decrease the output level, etc. -- the knob on the UFX is mostly for parameters vs. Master Volume, which was a bit of a shock to me when it arrived as I was hoping for both.

There's no substitute for IMMEDIATE access to volume control and muting! Too many situations not under our control, where things can happen, and in my own current software contracting job, I constantly run the risk of accidentally producing DC signal and blowing my speakers (Neumann!). Once the mouse is involved, you may have trouble finding and bringing the mix control window to the foreground, or the CPU may be maxed out and block you.

As you can see, I am trying to move away from rack gear after over 15 years of compromising for the "computer way". I have studied the Sound Devices hardware and software manuals (including add-ons/plug-ins) and am convinced the MixPre-10 can become my main drum tracker, session overdubber, primary quality transformerless mics for vocals, winds, amps, etc. But I don't see it being my main D/A for my active monitors, so it's a matter of the SLSL 2+ or the RME Fireface UFX fitting that role.

Up until I ran this test just now, I was of the mind that I was unlikely to notice much difference, or that the SSL would win as it's newer and as SSL is also a top company overall and they don't cheap out on what they put in their more affordable units. Certainly I noticed rather large differences in mic pre quality with the Audient ASP880, as well as A/D quality vs. the RME, even though I still think it's the best ADAT-oriented expansion model available.

[mhschmieder]

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... s-usbpre-2

I didn't think the Sound Devices USBPre 2 USB Audio Interface was still made, but it might end up being a good mate for the MixPre-10, as my mains for the active studio monitors and for everyday work when doing no more than two channels at a time

I think also it can hook into the MixPre-10 to give it two more channels of simultaneous analog input. And its A/D and D/A are said to be top-end, so probably it would match or beat the RME Fireface UFX (and certainly the SSL 2+), as well as offering direct analog output control on its front panel.

It is 7" x 4" so would fit on a computer desktop well enough.

Not sure if its mic pre-amps are as good or better than what's in the MixPre series, as it doesn't say much about them, but I'd primarily need it for the everyday ADDA work, and if it ends up being the best for vocals and winds and other cases where I need no more than two simultaneous channels, then that's an added bonus.

[mhschmieder]

The ADC of the MixPre series has 142 dB dynamic range, compared to 114 dB for the USBPre 2. Other specs are closer, but that one represents a giant gulf. There's a 3 dB difference in EIN, in favour of the mic pre's on the MixPre, so I doubt the USBPre 2 uses Kashmir mic pre's.

[mhschmieder]

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... -interface

The latest RME Babyface Pro (at least, I think this is the latest) might end up having the best specs and features, and includes MIDI I/O as well as two additional inputs (line-level only?).

I'll check this one out more after dinner, and will make sure the big knob can control output volume directly and immediately.

[mhschmieder]

Looks like the Babyface Pro FS has better specs by far than the SoundDevices USBPre 2, and also an improvement on the Fireface UFX (rev 1) -- though I don't know if the ADDA of the ADI-8 QS (which the UFX is based off of) is better than that of the ADI-2 Pro used by Babyface Pro FS.

I don't see any point in spending $50 more on the MADI version vs. ADAT, as it's a long wait (and I'm on the clock) and I'm unlikely to need MADI. I don't intend to use ADAT anymore either, but one never knows when someone will bring an ADAT deck with tape and ask for an archive.

I downloaded the user manual, and RME have greatly improved the writing style for features and workflow compared to their older models. It looks pretty easy to set the Big Dial (not a Knob as it is recessed) to act directly on the Main Outputs, and also there is a DIM function that appears to be assignable to different value offsets based on active feature, such as a 60 dB trim on the Main Outputs if one gets a "surprise" from a YouTube ad (e.g.).

As I also decided to just go with a cab mic and a tube condenser room mic on guitar and bass amps from now on (maybe capturing DI just in case of re-amping), and to drop the mid-distance ribbon mic I was using, and as I typically use two mics on clarinet, flute, etc., this unit could cover me for everything but drums and other multi-mic sessions as well as on-site recording, where the MixPre-10 will be the main tool. But only if the mic pre's are good enough; the ones in the Fireface UFX are nowhere near as good as my True Systems TP8 (but the ones in the MixPre series are).

[mhschmieder]

Holy smokes, the D/A converters in the 2019 RME Babyface Pro FS are 4x to 10x better than the ones in the 2010 RME Fireface UFX!

I always throw Murray Perahia's Chopin Ballades from 1994 as the first test, as I consider the CBS recording engineers on his solo piano discs to be about the best of anything ever recorded. The high frequencies are detailed and crisp, and the lows are distinct.

I didn't expect such a difference!

I imagine the Sound Devices MixPre D/A is equally good.

Based on this comparison (my Babyface arrived last night and I got it set up --with some minor initial bootstrapping difficulties -- today), I am even more surprised that the SSL 2+ didn't hold up to the 2010 RME Fireface UFX in terms of D/A quality.

[mhschmieder]

There's maybe a 2x to 4x improvement in the A/D of the Babyface over the Fireface.

The mic pre difference is more noticeable -- perhaps due to there being over 7 dB of additional headroom? Easily a 4x difference as the Babyface doesn't have that slight nasal quality of the Fireface and a bit more low frequency heft.

The difference of the Babyface vs. the True Precision 8 isn't more than 2x overall, so I'll need to run a final comparison with sung vocals tomorrow, and maybe a miked instrument as well (I did spoken word just now). Likely similar to the MixPre. A bit more clinical, but not harsh.

[Michael Canavan]

This is funny, I just pulled the plug on the Babyface Pro, literally 15 minutes before reading your posts. I'm down in CA doing some work, and aware that I would rather have a stage oriented interface again going forward with the M1 macs coming, but I didn't want to give up the connect-ability of the FF800. So the solution is to use the Babyface Pro with the ADAT as master to the FF800 connected to my hardware synths and studio setup. I debated getting a MOTU interface but I remember having some issues with trying to use different manufacturers ADATs together. RME directly stated in correspondence that you can use the ins from the FF800 in stand alone connected to the Babyface via ADAT once you set up the Fireface to do this.

So this is all really great news. I'm not worried about any superior quality to the Babyface's preamps when it comes to my old analog synths, and I'm really looking forward to a modular system where all my hardware remains setup and I'm able to quickly pull the Babyface out for travel etc. It's of course great to hear that the Babyface in general sounds great, and the pros are better. The FF800 is known for good but bland pres.

But yes, if like me you still have a complex 8 input studio setup, then ADAT is the way to go with the Babyface as a master and the old Fireface as a slave. Side note, I should be able to recoup some of the cost of the Babyface by selling my 14 port Thunderbolt 2 dock with a FF800 port. Those go for ridiculous amounts on eBay etc.

[mhschmieder]

On sung vocals, they're both clearly top-end neutral transformerless mic pre's.

TP8 has slightly more body and a bit less presence and air compared to Babyface.

They're not that easy to tell apart in a mix though.

I'll try clarinet tomorrow to see if there's a bigger difference. MixPre's are probably better still.

[Michael Canavan]

On sung vocals, they're both clearly top-end neutral transformerless mic pre's.

TP8 has slightly more body and a bit less presence and air compared to Babyface.

They're not that easy to tell apart in a mix though.

I'll try clarinet tomorrow to see if there's a bigger difference. MixPre's are probably better still.

Even better my man! you made me realize that RME released the upgraded FS Pro, I canceled an order for the old one and got the FS Pro with the better clock etc. etc.

Delivered two days later, but worth it not to wonder if the new one is that much better etc.

[Michael Canavan]

Same price, included a pair of K240 headphones as well.

[mhschmieder]

Good move! I hadn't considered the Babyface before, and didn't know about this Pro FS upgrade, which is significant in quality, features, and form factor as well as connectivity and usability. The user manual is much better written this time around as well.

Make sure you don't need or care about MADI before finalizing your order. I don't expect to need MADI -- especially not enough to spend $50 extra and wait for new shipments to arrive. I don't expect to use ADAT again either, but one never knows, and these at least are in stock.

[Michael Canavan]

Good move! I hadn't considered the Babyface before, and didn't know about this Pro FS upgrade, which is significant in quality, features, and form factor as well as connectivity and usability. The user manual is much better written this time around as well.

Make sure you don't need or care about MADI before finalizing your order. I don't expect to need MADI -- especially not enough to spend $50 extra and wait for new shipments to arrive. I don't expect to use ADAT again either, but one never knows, and these at least are in stock.

MADI is more geared towards stadium rigs and such isn't it? I thought it was RME's version of what MOTU do?

Anyway, with the 4 pres and 8 ins and 8 outs of the FF800 being made available by ADAT it's an obvious choice for me to got with the FS ADAT version.

[mhschmieder]

I wouldn't say it's RME's version as MADI is ancient; it's just that RME for the longest time was about the only vendor that had really come out with much serious pro-level gear that deals with it.

I think you're thinking of AVB, which my former employer co-invented and whose spec I contributed to. MOTU was an early adopter, and we even collaborated with them for our initial test lab. Also, for the longest time, MOTU made the only AVB switcher, which we used a lot.

Although they have some things in common, they're addressing mostly-different markets. And AVB has taken its strongest hold in the automotive sector, as it allows for a serious reduction of weight in wiring for the car's chassis. I think MADI was used in broadcasting and houses of worship, as two of its biggest historical applications.

What I was more curious about was whether RME had pipped any other specs while slotting in the MADI I/O where the ADAT connector sits on our version of the Babyface Pro FS. But the only difference is the add-on channel form factor. Kind of amazing they pulled off MADI for just $50 more!