Audio Express - Splitting out inputs to be used as individual inputs for the OS and apps? Line-in as Def. Stereo Input?

[adamcycle]

First, I am not talking about doing this in a DAW - selecting inputs in there is fine. I mean the input and output "devices" you can select in the OS or within applications that can accept a microphone input like Zoom, Loom, OBS, etc.

I feel like I have had interfaces that do this in the past - you could choose an option to have all I/O broken out individually rather than one stereo pair or something. I'm maybe 75% sure the Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 DSP did this.

Please don't recommend Rogue Amoeba's Loopback software. I have it and love it, it's a great utility, but the latency is no good for talking into a mic live.

I think splitting up the inputs for the OS is simply just not a feature of this interface, but wanted to see if anyone had any ideas or if there's something I may have missed.

Currently, in the MOTU Audio Setup Utility, I can select the "Default Stereo Input," and choose from mic/line 1/2, etc., which is a bit limiting, but it's looking like it just is what it is.

One somewhat annoying thing is that even if I select Analog 1-2 which are the line inputs, and give it a signal, I see the meter jump in the Mac's audio settings, but I get nothing in Zoom, etc.

It seems to me that something somewhere is not respecting what's set as the default stereo input set in the MOTU utility, so I'm forced to use the mic/line 1/2 combo inputs rather than the line inputs.

My ultimate goal is to open up Zoom or something, and be able to choose line input 1 as the "mic" because I am using an external preamp and do not want to hit the interface's pres. Nothing wrong with MOTU's pres, but I just wanted to go direct to the A/D converter, not hit a second preamp.

It's not bypassing the preamp when plugging a 1/4" into the combo jack, is it? I did notice that it detects the 1/4" and the digital trim maxes out at +22db rather than +60.

Kinda all over the place there I realize, but hopefully someone has some ideas! I have already reached out to MOTU support and Travis is great, but we didn't resolve it and I didn't want to keep bothering him.

I actually bought this Audio Express just last month for a variety of reasons, the main things being the mix capabilities and that it had line-level inputs, and I was bummed when I found I can only use the combo jacks to feed screen recording software. I'm starting to look at getting an UltraLite instead.

[mikehalloran]

I've never needed to use Loopback with Zoom on a Mac. Last time I read the Zoom manuals, this was required for Windows only. This is good since, per the User Guide, the Audio Express does not support Loopback.

https://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/firew ... de_Mac.pdf

You are going on about how you want it to work without telling us what you are trying to accomplish—there's a big difference between the two.

Over the last three years, Zoom has changed so much that, once I found a workflow that did what was needed, I stopped paying attention to anything else.

There's a ton of info and setup videos out there. I'm pretty sure you will find the answers in Zoom, however, not MOTU.

Step 1: Define your workflow. What needs to happen; not how do you want to force it to happen?

[adamcycle]

Thanks for the reply!

It may be valuable to actually read the post before replying rather than just skimming it.

Here is a direct quote from the post you just replied to, which you claim does not tell you what I want to do or define my workflow:

My ultimate goal is to open up Zoom or something [this means it doesn't have to be Zoom in particular], and be able to choose line input 1 as the "mic" because I am using an external preamp and do not want to hit the interface's pres.

Not sure how that or all the other stuff I wrote doesn't define what I'm trying to accomplish.

I want to send a signal from an external preamp into the MOTU's line input to use within various software applications that can accept audio inputs, but I cannot use those inputs as the "Default Stereo Input" despite selecting them as such for some unknown reason.

I'll admit I mention Zoom a lot, but this isn't a Zoom-specific issue. I was just using that as an example. We can stop talking about Zoom. Forget I mentioned that software at all.

Thanks for the link to the manual I have already read cover to cover at this point (hyperbole of course, but at this point it's pretty accurate).

When I said "Loopback," I was referring to a standalone software application from a company called Rogue Amoeba, not the loopback functionality offered by some interfaces. If you read the post again you'll see that clearly. Not sure how that was misunderstood or why you're capitalizing a word for a concept or feature. I capitalized it because it's the name of some software. It's common for people to recommend that software in situations like this, but like I said, it adds latency, and I've tried it.
Link to the software: https://rogueamoeba.com/loopback/

Unrelated to the issues at hand, but worth mentioning, the Audio Express does have something akin to loopback functionality (if not the exact same thing) in the form of the Mix 1 Returns (see page 45 & 62 of the manual). The Mix 1 Returns route the Main 1-2 outputs back into the computer as 2 additional input channels you can use within a DAW. Within the CueMix utility, you can specify whether or not you want the computer audio included in that mix. Pretty sure that's what "loopback" is, they just don't call it that in the Audio Express manual. Your 828 probably does that too, but you'd know better than me.

Also from the post you just replied to, I talked about the Default Stereo Input issue pretty clearly (I thought), but I'll elaborate on that and really break it down.


Steps to reproduce the issue:

• Connect a microphone to an external preamp, ensuring there is signal, and levels are appropriate.

• Connect the line-level output of the preamp to the 1/4" physical input marked as "LINE IN 3 (L)" on the rear of the MOTU Audio Express interface. This input translates to "Analog 1" in the MOTU Audio Setup software and MOTU CueMix software if the default naming is used.

• In the MOTU Audio Setup utility, select "Analog 1-2" as the "Default Stereo Input."

• In the Mac Sound Settings, select "MOTU Audio Express" as the input.

• Run ANY software application that is NOT a DAW and can accept a microphone input. If that software has its own preferences for the audio input source, select "MOTU Audio Express."

• Speak at a reasonable level into the microphone connected to the preamp which is feeding "LINE IN 3 / Analog 1" of the MOTU Audio Express.

Expected Behavior:

Audio passes to the application.

Actual Behavior:

NO AUDIO passes to the application.


Workaround:

• Connect the line-level signal from the preamp to either of the "MIC/INST IN" female XLR / 1/4" TRS combo connectors on the rear of the MOTU Audio Express.

• In the MOTU Audio Setup utility, select "Mic/Instrument 1-2" as the "Default Stereo Input."

Because I am using an external preamp, I want to bypass the interface's preamps and be able to use "Line In 3 / Analog 1" of the MOTU Audio Express as the audio source for non-DAW software, but it appears I can't do this, unless I'm really missing something.

I really don't know how I can be more clear after saying the same thing a few times in different ways both in my original post and this one.

If the unit just can't do this, so be it, I'm just trying to fully exhaust all my options.

I'm over here wondering why there's an option to use Analog 1-2 at all as the default stereo input if those inputs can't actually be used that way. It drove me crazy for a whole day trying all kinds of different things, then someone on /r/audioengineering gave me the tip of trying the mic/inst XLR/TRS jacks instead because the same thing happened to them with their Focusrite Scarlett 4i4, so I tried those, and what do you know, it worked. I was happy I was finally getting audio, but not via the inputs I wanted to use.

If an interface exists that has line inputs ONLY, good A/D conversion, and direct monitoring, I'd buy that, but I haven't been able to find such an animal. (If you know of one, please enlighten me.) This legacy MOTU unit checked all the boxes on paper, but once I actually tried to do what I want, it fell short, and in order to actually feed different software, the signal from the microphone has to go through an extra gain stage, which is what I was trying to avoid by getting this particular interface.

I know this is not MOTU tech support - I wasn't expecting it to be. This was just another resource I thought I could tap into for some ideas. Maybe someone else ran into the same thing and had a solution, who knows. Hopefully someone with something of value to contribute will also reply.

[mikehalloran]

It may be valuable to actually read the post before replying rather than just skimming it.

Good advice. I recommend following it.

There is no such thing as “Zoom or something like it”. Zoom on the Mac, how it handles audio and interfaces with Zoom drivers that you will not find in a MOTU manual has changed quite a bit over the last three years. Sometimes my workflow had to change to accommodate it after an update—always frustrating.

Start with exactly what you are trying to accomplish in Zoom. You are focused on how you want to do ???. Without knowing what ??? Is, I can’t help you. There are many possible workflows — which to chose depends on what you want to get done and you’ve not told us that.

An example might be: I want to teach my students how to use DP in real time over Zoom. Besides playback from DP, Live audio sources will include a stereo keyboard recording overdubs, a vocalist and my voiceover., There will also be a video playback with audio and some prerecorded audio tracks. I just described a project with five different functions, each with its own process—none that require Loopback on a Mac last I checked (but do over windows)..

If you don’t want t go there, that’s ok. What you mention in your title, if accurate, is handled in the OS level on a Mac by creating an Aggregate Device (you combine application outputs, not split inputs). Apple has support docs on this as does Zoom and Rogue Amoeba (they will show you how to do this with Audio Hijack) but what to use, when and how? Audio Hijack is a very convenient tool to use at that level but it’s never been necessary as far as I can tell.

[adamcycle]

Oh my god. You're just messing with me now

I'll keep playing, for the entertainment value. This is just funny at this point.

It may be valuable to actually read the post before replying rather than just skimming it.

Good advice. I recommend following it.

I also recommend following it!

You keep going on about Zoom after I said it's not a Zoom issue. Please believe me, it's really not.

From my last post:

this isn't a Zoom-specific issue. I was just using that as an example. We can stop talking about Zoom. Forget I mentioned that software at all.

Seriously, pretend like Zoom does not exist.

From your reply:

Start with exactly what you are trying to accomplish in Zoom.

OK, here it is, clear as day in my original post. and quoted it in my last reply:

My ultimate goal is to open up Zoom or something, and be able to choose line input 1 as the "mic" because I am using an external preamp and do not want to hit the interface's pres. Nothing wrong with MOTU's pres, but I just wanted to go direct to the A/D converter, not hit a second preamp.

In my most recent post I also said this:

I want to send a signal from an external preamp into the MOTU's line input to use within various software applications that can accept audio inputs, but I cannot use those inputs as the "Default Stereo Input" despite selecting them as such for some unknown reason.

Here it is again, from near the end of the last post:

Because I am using an external preamp, I want to bypass the interface's preamps and be able to use "Line In 3 / Analog 1" of the MOTU Audio Express as the audio source for non-DAW software, but it appears I can't do this, unless I'm really missing something.

Where is the communication breakdown here?

You ask this:

You are focused on how you want to do ???. Without knowing what ??? Is, I can’t help you.

Here is the "what," again:

I want to send a signal from an external preamp into the MOTU's line input to use within various software applications that can accept audio inputs, but I cannot use those inputs as the "Default Stereo Input" despite selecting them as such for some unknown reason.

A fourth time, because why not:

I want to send audio into my computer using the line inputs 1-2 to be used by a variety of applications. When I select "Analog 1-2" as the Default Stereo Input, and speak into a microphone that's going in to a preamp with the preamp conencted to one of those inputs, NO AUDIO passes to ANY application that can accept audio.

Doesn't matter if it's a web browser, OBS, my butt, whatever, I get NOTHING when the line inputs are assigned as the Default Stereo Inputs.

I’ll even use your rubric:

I want to teach people how to use the software I support by making screen recordings that I narrate. Audio source is a single microphone going into an external preamp, which is in turn connected to the interface using a line input. Unfortunately, for some reason when I use that input and select “Analog 1-2” as my Default Stereo Input within the MOTU Audio Setup utility, I get no sound. When I use Mic/Instrument 1-2” instead, I do get sound, but I would prefer to use Analog 1-2 to avoid hitting a second preamp.

Rogue Amoeba's Loopback or Audio Hijack should not be needed for this, you're correct. I don't have to use it because a direct workaround for this is to just use mic/inst 1/2 as the Default Stereo Input for the system, but the whole point of this is that I don't want to use those inputs.

You touched on Aggregate Devices in the Mac's Audio MIDI Settings. My mind went there too, and like you said, it won't do what I want, but it's worth mentioning that all the options for the MOTU on the input side are "greyed out," which isn't the case for other audio devices I've used, so that's weird.

I'll make a video describing what I want to do when I get a chance as well.

To anyone else who happens to see this: Do YOU understand what I'm saying, or am I seriously not explaining it well?

[mikehalloran]

I want to send audio into my computer using the line inputs 1-2 to be used by a variety of applications. When I select "Analog 1-2" as the Default Stereo Input, and speak into a microphone that's going in to a preamp with the preamp conencted to one of those inputs, NO AUDIO passes to ANY application that can accept audio.

You're telling us how you want to do (something). The MacOS doesn't support this — Core Audio cannot behave like an analog mixer.

An Aggregate device may need to be built in Audio MIDI Setup.app for each situation when routing Outputs (never Inputs) from your Audio Express to more than one audio driver or application. Apple has Support docs on this. Such setups will often call for a patch utility like Audio Hijack. There are others such as BlackHole (freeware) that may work. Soundflower, though long depreciated, is occasionally the only solution that you can use, again, depending on the driver(s)—still required for any Roxio product.

Audio Hijack is able to automate certain processes and incorporate plug-ins—very difficult or impossible with the freeware. Rogue Amoeba has some tutorials as well. I'm working on a couple of projects using it that I hope to post in the next few days.

Zoom is its own little world. Any solution you build for it will not apply to any other situation—none of them use the Zoom drivers. If you have a paid Zoom account, their support can walk you through all of the common situations. BTW, what works for Zoom and DP does not work for Finale even though I am using the same audio interface with both. If it involves Finale and DP over Zoom and I have to do a live VO, that's a very complicated setup but it's doable. The aggregate device is actually assembled in Zoom, not Audio MIDI Setup.

Also take a look at this thread. aybe some of those apps will help.
https://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72999

[James Steele]

When I use Mic/Instrument 1-2” instead, I do get sound, but I would prefer to use Analog 1-2 to avoid hitting a second preamp.

Can I ask this: does it sound like total crap when you use Mic/Instrument 1-2? Or does it sound okay? Do you hear a difference or you just don't want to use the multipurpose inputs on principle? It does say Mic/Instrument, yes? I assume the "second preamp" is basically turned all the way down in the case of an instrument input and not doing much, so if you can't hear an appreciable difference... well might as well use it for now.

Hopefully you can get a more satisfactory answer, but in the meantime you can I guess use the inputs that work for now.

[adamcycle]

Hey James, thanks for the first constructive comment to this thread! (and for bringing me back down to Earth...)

I'll admit I'm hung up on a non-issue. It sounds completely fine using the combo jack.

If I listen really hard, I can (or at least I think I can) tell the difference between audio recorded through the line input vs. the mic/inst input, but it's super marginal, and on top of that, it makes no difference given how the recordings are ultimately consumed.

You got it - I really don't want to use the multipurpose inputs on principle. (Not being sarcastic, that is the truth.)

I'm a big believer in "if it sounds good, it is good" so this stance is pretty hypocritical, and I'm also expecting more than I should out of a legacy interface connected to an M1 Mac running the latest OS version. I paid a measly $130 for the thing too.

The thing is (read: what I'm butthurt about), I wouldn't have hunted down this particular interface if I had known I wouldn't be able to use the line inputs the way I wanted, and what's been driving me nuts is that there seems to be no rhyme or reason why I can't.

No matter what input pair I select as the "Default Stereo Input," the only one that actually passes audio to whatever I'm recording into (outside of a DAW) will be Mic/Instrument 1-2, and that to me feels like a shortcoming somewhere - the firmware, software, OS, who knows. It's just weird and frustrating.

I really do love this Audio Express though and I know I can't win 'em all, I just wish it didn't tease me with the option of using the line inputs when it's not possible.

[mikehalloran]

One of the features of the Audio Express:

Precision Digital Trim™ — digitally controlled analog trim on all inputs provides adjustments in approximately 1 dB increments. Fine-tune the balance of your inputs and then save/recall trim configurations.

This is covered in the manual. Some of the newer MOTU interfaces do not have this feature.

[adamcycle]

Yeah, it has a lot of great features. Digital trim on the line ins was one of many factors that made me choose a decade-old interface over the M2/M4.

It seems like a pretty unique feature set overall compared to what’s available today in my (low) budget.

I also like the monitor mix flexibility and how it’s an actual mix rather than being more like a “balance” which seems like a lot of interfaces in the “affordable” tier are moving to.

I could go on and on about why I got this one over something new...

It’s absolutely fantastic for recording and I really shouldn’t be mad at the one shortcoming it has that I can easily work around anyway.