Plogue Bidule & Vienna Ensemble experts, collaborate!

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:10 pm

Experts in Plogue Bidule and Vienna Ensemble Pro, the DP Tips Sheet needs you. In the past I've kept the Tips Sheet strictly DP oriented. Once you let in something outside your range of focus, it can get messy pretty quickly. So, I have nothing in there about PB or VE (or VE-Pro). I'm starting to realize that at least in those two cases it's pretty important for us to have a reference that doesn't float away as the posts roll in, so I'm ready to do a tips-sheet tutorial on both PB and VE. These apps are not just important to us, but essential for anyone running a large template. Trouble is, I'm not an expert in either one. I've used them and have a grasp of how it is done, but I'd have to ask a lot of questions to get a thorough treatment of them, and it's been since about 2009 that I used either of them. Things have changed.

So, I'm asking for some volunteers to write a basic tutorial and perhaps some advanced tips as well. Let's keep the development here in this thread, not the Tips Sheet thread. No hurry; this could take a month. Or, depending on your level of interest and how complete the writing is, it might happen in a couple of days.

Be aware that I will be editing everything that goes into the Tips Sheet. How much I edit depends on how closely you mimic the Tips Sheet format, and how much I need to combine people's posts. It is important to me that people get recognized for what they do, so I will be sure to credit each person with their ideas, as much as possible. Take a look at the Tips Sheet to see how it is organized. There are particular categories I use to label tips, but I don't have the list handy. We may have to invent a category or two for this project.

It occurs to me that the tutorial may be better served In Part by a separate post(s) in the Tips Sheet Thread AND by some more specific DP-side tips in the Tips Sheet itself. (The Tips Sheet currently consists of the first 3 posts in the thread. The other posts in the thread are not all tips, but I try to keep the whole thread as DP Tips-centric as possible. Until I see what information we have, and how it is best organized, I won't know whether or how much to put in separate posts.

There may already be some great tutorials in this forum on PB and VE/VEP, and if that's the case, please show them to us as they apply to each issue at hand. I will not be copying existing posts into the Tips Sheet. These tips have to be written from the ground up to format correctly for the sheet.

The basic organization will be under the following three categories:

Setup
Recording/Playing
Editing/Mixing

Setup will need to include the various windows involved in DP. Don't forget the Bundles Window! We need clear step-by-step instruction, but also concept overviews. Also, we need to know what to do about Latency, and any other issues. Someone wrote in a current thread that he thinks Plogue Bidule is a one-core app, that it does not utilize all four cores. I do not believe that is true with Intel machines, but if it is, could someone please elaborate?

Plogue Bidule and VE will be separate tips, of course. In fact, I expect to see a lot of tips on each. Each tip will be credited with chief contributors and general contributors. While I want to take advantage of everyone's interest, it's likely that we only need a couple of people working on this. Let's just see how it starts working out as people volunteer and show us what they have. Please do not take my comments personally; they are only oriented toward making the tips as useful as possible. Sometimes less is more, except for those times when it isn't. I fly by the seat of the pants, so there isn't really a set of rules. I just go by what feels right. So if I make some big changes or suggestions, please consider it in the bigger picture.

Speaking of pictures, they are indispensable for such a tutorial, but there is one problem. Permanence. We know that Mac.Com and MobileMe are not very permanent, and are going away in June. iCloud may offer usable graphics for posts, but chances are we'll need an outside host. When you upload pictures to be used in the Tips Sheet, please remember that a LOT of people may be looking at them (so don't host them on your own computer), and the Tips Sheet is already 6 years old and has survived a number of formatting changes. It may still be here in ten or twenty years. Revisions will help, but the more permanent a place you find to host pictures, the better off everyone will be. Try to write as if there were no pictures, then use pictures only when they are essential.

Ok, I hope we find some interested parties. Please assess your skills and see if you think you can write the book on this subject, as briefly as possible, but as thoroughly as possible.

My thanks in advance to all who respond. The Tips Sheet is from all of you. I'm just the lowly editor, and it would not exist without you.

Shooshie

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:32 pm

Ok, slow down everyone… don't all respond at once!
So, are you guys gonna make me do this myself? I guarantee you that the quality of information will suffer if I have to do it. I don't know either Bidule or VE well enough to do them justice.

Then again, maybe you are content to reinvent the wheel every time this subject comes up.

Well, no problem. There's time.

Shoosh

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:45 pm

I'm not all that knowledgeable in the PB intricacies. They do have an excellent board run by the guys who produce PB.

If I can help I will. I plan on checking out the OSC feature to put my G5 in service as a VI host, so maybe I'll learn a few tricks I can share.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:07 pm

This is some tricky stuff, Shoosh.

Now, there is a PDF manual which does lay out the how-to's, however concisely. But I've been reading the specific posts on the VSL forum about VEPro just to see what some of the issues are, and the issues vary greatly from one user to the next. So, I've sort of tried to limit my reading to those using DP. But that's only been since yesterday.

What makes this a bit trickier than other troubleshooting endeavors is the Leo-SL-Lion conundrum in which people seem to be using a wider variety of operating systems than usual. There's also the matter of some working in 64-bit mode while others are still using the 32-bit kernel out of necessity or some variation of that necessity.

Then, there are those who use PC/Windows slaves, and I confess to be stumped before even getting started.

On another off-on-topic matter, I just got a notice that VSL will do a workshop on Thursday in advance of NAMM at a location within an hour from where I live. That would afford the opportunity to compile gobs of issues and to boil them all down to a handful of the most common questions. Even if I could do that over the next day or two, I'm not sure I can even make it to the workshop.

That brings up another matter--- a good bit of the VSL team is already headed to the USA. Tech help always slows a little this time of year because of NAMM. But, I'm trying to assess the best way to contribute constructively where getting answers is concerned.

From what I understand, there are two elements to all of this Bidule/VEPRO stuff:

1. Tips and tricks
2. Troubleshooting

There's been a lot of troubleshooting, and if that isn't ironed out first, the tips and tricks will ring hollow for those who are having instrumental drop-outs and other issues which are not supposed to happen as a result of following the manuals verbatim.

No-- I don't think you should do all of this yourself, Shooshie. The difference with the Bidule/VEPRO approach is that fewer people here use it than those who use DP (which allowed for more contributions to the DP tips and tricks). It also goes further than to troubleshoot two different apps, but it's important to square the circle of those two apps into DP world for the sake of this forum.

Some use them on one machine. Some use them on two or more machines. I don't think Bidule has LAN support yet, but VEPRO does. I encountered one user whose biggest concern was that Bidule still only uses one processor even though it's 64-bit.

It's not a lack of interest on anyone's part, I shouldn't think. There are just a lot of components with both Bidule and VEPRO alone--- and sifting though the abundance of info on how this all works (or doesn't) in different DAWs to get to the most meaningful DP issues is a worthy challenge.... but however worthy it is, it really is a challenge.

Hang in there. Even the biggest waterfall starts with a few "drips".

That reminds me--- you called for "experts"!! Narrow your search a little and you'll likely get a few more "drips".

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:25 pm

Frodo wrote:This is some tricky stuff, Shoosh.

Now, there is a PDF manual which does lay out the how-to's, however concisely. But I've been reading the specific posts on the VSL forum about VEPro just to see what some of the issues are, and the issues vary greatly from one user to the next. So, I've sort of tried to limit my reading to those using DP. But that's only been since yesterday.

What makes this a bit trickier than other troubleshooting endeavors is the Leo-SL-Lion conundrum in which people seem to be using a wider variety of operating systems than usual. There's also the matter of some working in 64-bit mode while others are still using the 32-bit kernel out of necessity or some variation of that necessity.

Then, there are those who use PC/Windows slaves, and I confess to be stumped before even getting started.

On another off-on-topic matter, I just got a notice that VSL will do a workshop on Thursday in advance of NAMM at a location within an hour from where I live. That would afford the opportunity to compile gobs of issues and to boil them all down to a handful of the most common questions. Even if I could do that over the next day or two, I'm not sure I can even make it to the workshop.

That brings up another matter--- a good bit of the VSL team is already headed to the USA. Tech help always slows a little this time of year because of NAMM. But, I'm trying to assess the best way to contribute constructively where getting answers is concerned.

From what I understand, there are two elements to all of this Bidule/VEPRO stuff:

1. Tips and tricks
2. Troubleshooting

There's been a lot of troubleshooting, and if that isn't ironed out first, the tips and tricks will ring hollow for those who are having instrumental drop-outs and other issues which are not supposed to happen as a result of following the manuals verbatim.

No-- I don't think you should do all of this yourself, Shooshie. The difference with the Bidule/VEPRO approach is that fewer people here use it than those who use DP (which allowed for more contributions to the DP tips and tricks). It also goes further than to troubleshoot two different apps, but it's important to square the circle of those two apps into DP world for the sake of this forum.

Some use them on one machine. Some use them on two or more machines. I don't think Bidule has LAN support yet, but VEPRO does. I encountered one user whose biggest concern was that Bidule still only uses one processor even though it's 64-bit.

It's not a lack of interest on anyone's part, I shouldn't think. There are just a lot of components with both Bidule and VEPRO alone--- and sifting though the abundance of info on how this all works (or doesn't) in different DAWs to get to the most meaningful DP issues is a worthy challenge.... but however worthy it is, it really is a challenge.

Hang in there. Even the biggest waterfall starts with a few "drips".

+1 totally agree Frodo
what I've read concerning the complexity of tweaks needed to get VEPRO utilized, I'm just waiting for DP to go 64 bit eventually and avoid all of the layers of software having to work with each other. There seems to be so many variables,writing a sticky seems like a challenging endeavor of futility.
Hey Shooshie- you might have a 10 page posting with this topic

Honestly I am hoping when the ram limitation ends w/ the 64 bit implementation of DP etc....& the need for ancillary software such as VEPRO and PB will lessen.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:30 pm

kgdrum wrote:....& the need for ancillary software such as VEPRO and PB lessen.

Yes. There's a great lesson in that "lessen"!

SixStringGeek · Post by **SixStringGeek** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:52 pm

kgdrum wrote:I am hoping when the ram limitation ends w/ the 64 bit implementation of DP etc....& the need for ancillary software such as VEPRO and PB will lessen.

Nice thought - only now how will you run your legacy 32 bit plugs like all those orphaned NI products (B4 II for instance)?

I'm trying my hand at film scoring for the first time and using VE Pro to keep the bigger samplers out in a 64 bit server. It is pretty good, but I'm having audio dropout issues during playback for some reason.

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:02 pm

Unfortunately it might then be time to kill the little ones,lol
I have, love and use B4 but if I have to eventually use something else to move into 64 bit land, so be it.
btw: I have seen 1 or 2 posts insinuating that VB3 will now work in DP,I don't know if they support 64 bit though.All reports say its a great B3 emulation.

Marc7777 · Post by **Marc7777** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:16 pm

I'd love to help out here. I'm pretty experienced in both Plogue and VEP. More on the user end, rather than the super technical programmer side.. (btw can we just say VEP and know we're talking about VE Pro 5?) But i've helped out many of my composer friends with their home setup and have seen where most users go wrong/ get discouraged.

2 things I think would really help out here.

1) How to setup VEP in DP. including all the little settings that seem to grind DP users to a hault when setting up DP. **Like changing the prefs to "Run all Virtual Instruments in Real TIme" So many people fall for this! ... there are others too..

2) How VEP and Plogue are similar and different. Pros and cons. etc. (I actually use both!)

Oh and one thing about 64 bit DP. Yes it would be great to have all your sounds in your DP file, but think about how long it would take to open files! That's the really great thing about VEP and Plogue, is that you can keep your DP files nice and snappy and keep all your ridiculously big sample libraries in an external place that you can keep loaded.. ONCE!... unless DP figures out a way to get around this.. That's a deal breaker IMO. I switch between projects non stop, and it would kill my workflow to have to sit there and load all 100+ samples every session! ...plus I love my B4 ..

So yea, Soosh, I'm on board for this one. Where do we start? I didn't want to just rant for 5 pages here haha

Always glad to help,

M7

Marc7777 · Post by **Marc7777** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:20 pm

oops, i guess some of the things I said, Frodo mentioned too.

Sorry, didn't read his until after my post..

my B

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:55 pm

Marc7777 wrote:Where do we start?

Excellent question. I think you might have started to answer that question-- starting with the user approach to common setup issues. Along with this, if there is any info in the manuals that could be clarified it could offer even more for users to chew on.

For more troubeshooting, it might be worth offering suggestions for reasonable hard drive setups and how to get the most out one's system. For example, I know someone who opted to put all of their libraries on a single 2TB drive without knowing the pros and cons of doing that.

Another good place to start would be to take a look at those threads in which problems were solved with Bidule and VEP. Those could be lifted and compiled easily enough. Other threads in which problems were not solved could be collected and considered if solutions for any of them are available. That's not quick work, but at least we could get all the problems on one page.

Beyond that, the process could necessarily go in different directions where some issues would be uniquely related to either utility and would have to be addressed independently. At that point, it might be easier to do a good A/B of the pros and cons where some people have both, some have one or the other, and some who have neither are wondering which one would best suit their needs.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:03 pm

I'm really ill suited to really make a valuable contribution here. You know the old adage: write what you know...

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:23 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:I'm really ill suited to really make a valuable contribution here. You know the old adage: write what you know...

Never say never. C'mon. Join the rest of us old adages and let us know about your setup and why it works for you. You're using Bidule, right?

"It is your des-ti-ny....!!"

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:27 pm

Oh-- we've got a little bit of youtube to play with as well!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBB4Txnpl78" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Clearly, there is room for a DP7 tutorial?

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:30 pm

You are so not the boss of me!

MOTUnation.com